Ukraine Today

[Anthropoid]

A population armed to the teeth sounds like American style massacres waiting to happen.

How about "Swiss" style?

 

[Mage246]

How about Afghan style. Oh wait, tens of thousands more Afghans (Taliban or otherwise) have been killed than Coalition forces (even if you include Afghan government casualties). So yeah, there are massacres. But they're pretty one-sided against partisans, even in a battle-hardened population like Afghanistan.

It's such a horrible plan for national defense that I don't know why anyone still considers it to be credible. And again, te threat of an insurgency has never stopped any country from invading another, as far as I can tell. Certainly didn't work in the case of Afghanistan either time.

Switzerland doesn't get invaded because its population is armed, it doesn't get invaded because its state is neutral (and because strategically speaking it's quicker to go around Switzerland than through it, if you're planning to attack it's neighbors. Additionally, it's in the middle of freaking Europe. I don't see any more wars happening in that area anytime soon.

If your country doesn't have the advantages of Switzerland and can't stay neutral, your options aren't as good. Arming the population won't prevent attack, and will make you less internally stable, if your politics tend towards violence (yup).

 

[Bluehawk]

Not that I don't get what you're advocating here or disagreeing, but I'm pretty sure the Chinese sent a million man army to help North Korea during the war, not groups of volunteers.

The task force sent into Korea was dubbed the "People's Volunteer Army", so that might be misleading. After its withdrawl in '58, something like 73% of the entire Chinese ground forces had been rotated into Korea at some point. Hardly a small or voluntary action. I don't think Russia will commit a full-blown uniformed task force like China did in Korea... or America did in Korea.

Then again, in 2008 I said "they won't cross the S. Ossestian border, don't worry guys!" So what the **** do I know?

 

[Mage246]

Most likely Russian invasion scenario is a punitive expeditionary force sent to either force Ukraine to capitulate on a particular issue or depose their government in the hopes of installing a friendly puppet (think Desert Storm with Saddam toppled). I can't see them occupying the country in either case. In which case, armed population does nothing to stop them.

 

[Untitled.]

It's such a horrible plan for national defense that I don't know why anyone still considers it to be credible. And again, te threat of an insurgency has never stopped any country from invading another, as far as I can tell. Certainly didn't work in the case of Afghanistan either time.

That's because you didn't hear of the times a country didn't invade.

 

[RalliX]

In this particular case, the lack of firearms had less to do with the successful expulsion of Yanukovich.

You guys act like the firearm laws saved the country from a civil war, when in fact, a war did not begin because there was no need for it.
A war would have begun, if Yanukovich was like Bashar Al-Assad. The difference between the two men is simple: The Assad has the political grip to maintain his power by force.

I can tell that Yanukovich is the type of guy who would have a war before he would give up his power. This is demonstrated by the fact that he would not negotiate, and neither would he call an election to prove his legitimacy as president. However, he did not have the loyalty of the army, only of the internal ministry troops.

I bet he would have called in the army, if he had the clout. That is the moment where the protestors would take up firearms, as they should.

Horrifying isn't it. When people allow themselves to be so complacent with their government, until it is corrupt and buggering them.
The luck here was that the people did not allow themselves to be complacent, and removed the corruption before too much blood needed to be spilled.

But what about when you're too late? Then you have to ask, whether you think your regime is worth spending your own and many others lives to topple. Clearly the answer is yes for many Syrians. Too bad the war is so indecisive.

Most likely Russian invasion scenario is a punitive expeditionary force sent to either force Ukraine to capitulate on a particular issue or depose their government in the hopes of installing a friendly puppet (think Desert Storm with Saddam toppled). I can't see them occupying the country in either case. In which case, armed population does nothing to stop them.

I think its quite likely that the Russians would have invaded if the unrest turned to war. In which case, the only thing which could possibly stop them are an armed population. Successfulness depending entirely on how unpopular the Russians are, of course.

 

[Weaver]

I think its quite likely that the Russians would have invaded if the unrest turned to war. In which case, the only thing which could possibly stop them are an armed population.

And the only way this could have escalated into a proper civil war would be if most protesters were armed with guns and rifles. There is no way the army could maintain neutral stance in that case.

 

[Trueten]

Again, it's not about "you still won't be able to protect ya self from invasion, or getting any chance of even winning any battle'. It's about the casualties the army can get when it's entering unarmed city, and when the city is full of guns. The prospect of high casualties from both sides leads to think twice before making some active decisions.

Every government has its gun monopoly, when it can make with citizens everything they want. Adequate government having this monopoly never leads to a moment when people start to talk about having guns or even think of armed rebellion. But Yanukovich is not adequate, he's a freak, a true criminal who's violence (wll, not his violence directly, but what the police was brave enough to do with citizens during his presidentship, and Yanukovich didn't even do a thing from stopping the police. Because he knew that some day he'll need this folks and tied with corruption they will fight better) grew higher and higher with his presidentship.

There's a video was cought today, where a policeman parked his car in a wrong place. A man came with camera bullyed at him saying "Dafaq you're doing here? Move the hell outta here". The policeman said "What? I gotta gun". "Well I too have a gun. Show me your documents!". Simply look at his face. Several policemen came to talk but then they said "Okay, Okay we're moving off".
Here (sorry, no translation, but I've described the dialogue):

usually it's the police who's bullying and asks for your id's. On the video it's vice versa.
It sounds like an aggressive act from a citizen, yes, but after years of policemen being unpunisheble and usually even the one's who violated the law in a first place due to be a class of 'untouchable', the mass is too angry with them. "I am the law" was their motto. And after 23 years they are finally afraid of people and they start to OBEY THE LAW. This is a unique moment when people finally feel more protected (no, not becasue somebody has a gun now, but because policemen are too afraid of angrying the citizens these days). I saw a moment where not the police-car persuit a civil car. But when a SUV chased a road police car! The country is really changing and we finally have hopes for positive changes, and that police will be more calm and will know ther limits and OBAY THE LAW.

 

[Do not look here]

Again, it's not about "you still won't be able to protect ya self from invasion, or getting any chance of even winning any battle'. It's about the casualties the army can get when it's entering unarmed city, and when the city is full of guns. The prospect of high casualties from both sides leads to think twice before making some active decisions.

Don't that kind of things result in army changing towns into fine dust from afar after stepping on a hedgehog too often?

 

[nikosierra125]

Yeah as I said, without anything to back it up, light arms are really not much of a deterrent.

 

[Weaver]

usually it's the police who's bullying and asks for your id's. On the video it's vice versa.

So the oppressive regime was overthrown just so that you could now bully other people on the streets, including the police? And carry firearms for that purpose?
Do you even comprehend what you're talking about? Did people die just to let the thugs humiliate road patrols without even a good reason?
That video is disgusting.

 

[Trueten]

So the oppressive regime was overthrown just so that you could now bully other people on the streets, including the police? And carry firearms for that purpose?
Do you even comprehend what you're talking about? Did people die just to let the thugs humiliate road patrols without even a good reason?
That video is disgusting.

Really now? Tell the folks in this thread that it's probably sounds wierd when people have to tell police to obay the law? I'm not saying that it's the main result of the revolution, but clearly you never had close 'contacts' with our police (neither did I, but the stories are horrible). Should I remind you this:

Honestly, nobody is surprised with this video. We heared about such things a lot, but it is shocking when you see it.

You're changing the meaning of my words, that's not good from your side. I'm saying that after 23 years there's a chance for changes in a POSITIVE direction.

I know that this opposition nowadays looks like to screw everything up. But 1. Only 3 days past to see any results. 2. French revolution was bloody and it failed in the end. But in perspective it pushed the country to a better changes.

Don't that kind of things result in army changing towns into fine dust from afar after stepping on a hedgehog too often?

Sure, if you're not afraid of the whole world community to respond on such actions.

 

[Do not look here]

Don't that kind of things result in army changing towns into fine dust from afar after stepping on a hedgehog too often?

Sure, if you're not afraid of the whole world community to respond on such actions.

At this point you've just marched with whole army into independent country to subjugate it. I don't think person doing that really values world's opinion anymore.

Also, it's good to learn that we're not only country here that is dead-afraid of Russkies marching in, like they would have no better things to do.

 

[RalliX]

I think its quite likely that the Russians would have invaded if the unrest turned to war. In which case, the only thing which could possibly stop them are an armed population.

And the only way this could have escalated into a proper civil war would be if most protesters were armed with guns and rifles. There is no way the army could maintain neutral stance in that case.

Owning a rifle does not equate to using a rifle.
I think that the large part of the protestors felt that they did not want or need a war to end Yanukovich's rule. There are about 3 million firearms in civilian ownership in Ukraine, licit and illicit.

 

[Trueten]

Yup. Guns are for protection and for 'responsibilty' - think twice before you do something. It's like nuclear bomb, best way to stop conflicts peacefully.

Funny thing. Right now the Crimean city Sevastopol is likely the only city that wants to separate (no wonder, russian fleet is stationed here). There are protests right now. They also seemed to get armed with AK-47s (saw it on a video) 'cause they're afraid of nazi nazi invasion (sic). Poor people, the UFO invasion sounds more convinceble. But what is funny? Funny is that they are protesting on the streets and want to join Russia (as separate city), while at the same time protests in Russia are forbidden at all. If you've seen the recent events in Russia you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

[Anthropoid]

How about Afghan style. Oh wait, tens of thousands more Afghans (Taliban or otherwise) have been killed than Coalition forces (even if you include Afghan government casualties). So yeah, there are massacres. But they're pretty one-sided against partisans, even in a battle-hardened population like Afghanistan.

It's such a horrible plan for national defense that I don't know why anyone still considers it to be credible. And again, te threat of an insurgency has never stopped any country from invading another, as far as I can tell. Certainly didn't work in the case of Afghanistan either time.

Switzerland doesn't get invaded because its population is armed, it doesn't get invaded because its state is neutral (and because strategically speaking it's quicker to go around Switzerland than through it, if you're planning to attack it's neighbors. Additionally, it's in the middle of freaking Europe. I don't see any more wars happening in that area anytime soon.

If your country doesn't have the advantages of Switzerland and can't stay neutral, your options aren't as good. Arming the population won't prevent attack, and will make you less internally stable, if your politics tend towards violence (yup).

Ah right. So every nation that isn't Switzerland is just ****ed anyhow, so why bother eh!? 

You disarmament apologists always have the best jokes 

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Because that's exactly what Mage was saying, right?

 

[Anthropoid]

Because that's exactly what Mage was saying, right?

Every human being has an innate right to defend themselves, their loved ones and their property. Firearms are the safest, most effective versatile and inexpensive technology for doing that at this time. No government on the planet has the privilege, much less the right, to deny its citizens the basic human right of self-defense and/or the capacity to resist oppression.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Because that's exactly what Mage was saying, right?

Every human being has an innate right to defend themselves, their loved ones and their property. Firearms are the safest, most effective versatile and inexpensive technology for doing that at this time. No government on the planet has the privilege, much less the right, to deny its citizens the basic human right of self-defense and/or the capacity to resist oppression.

I'm not too sure putting trust into one's fellow man is any better than putting it into the government.

 

[Almalexia]

Swadius does raise an excellent point there.