Ukraine Today

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Dodes

Count
M&BWBWF&S
I hope he steps all over his Legos with only his bare feet..... then is held accountable by an Ukrainian jury in a case for his crimes, hopefully leading up into lifetime imprisonment.
 

Vermillion_Hawk

Butthurt Bushmaster
Grandmaster Knight
WF&SWBVC
Dodes said:
I hope he steps all over his Legos with only his bare feet..... then is held accountable by an Ukrainian jury in a case for his crimes, hopefully leading up into lifetime imprisonment.

"Lifetime imprisonment"? A Ukranian jury at this point in time:

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Dodes

Count
M&BWBWF&S
Actually I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of the protesters' negotiations despite their use of violence. Somebody in their leadership is clever enough to know you can't **** up this kind of ****.
 

wrc

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Well this was really an unpleasant situation in Ukraine, they at least have a chance to get closer to the EU now.

trueten said:
We know their commanders' names. The investigation is started. At least one sniper was captured on one civilian block-post in a black Passat with about $7k dollars.
Were they actually members of the gov. forces or some paramilitary group?
 

Trueten

Section Moderator
WBVC
Workaholic said:
Were they actually members of the gov. forces or some paramilitary group?
Official members. They run away. In the investigation there's an info that the whole opereation was under control of one fo the russian defence Ministry commanders. Of course, this info cannot be confirmed yet. But it's yet the only russian trail there is.

Oh, there's also an info that Yanukovich is hiding in the russian military navy base in Crimea. Seems that our MiGs are patrolling the area in case 'something' will try to leave that area by via air.

And funny thing - Yanukovich was in a such a big rush that he forgot his wife. **** happens.
 

Weaver

Count
First, a small anecdotal story from the previous day.
We had two demonstrations in the city. Both maydan and anti-maydan, both comprising of several thousand people.
I walked out to greet the maydan activists.
We stood on the sidewalk and watched the column pass. I was surprised to see many people wearing black masks and carrying baseball bats. I pointed it out to some bespectacled fellow who was standing near me with his gf. Why are they still hiding their faces, didn't we win?
As we were talking they started shouting "Glory to Ukraine" and raising hands in an unmistakable "sieg heil" gesture. The dude in glasses said something like "What? Are they nazis?"
Immediately one of the masked kids shouted "Titushki! They're titushki!", jumped towards us and pepper-sprayed the bespectacled fellow in the face. He then promptly retreated and we saw a group with baseball bats moving towards us. The crowd quivered, some older women started shouting "What are you doing? Why are you provoking the people?" They hesitated for a moment and then an older man without a mask appeared and commanded them to move on, which they thankfully did.
The whole incident left a bitter taste in my mouth. But it was also an eye opener.
Later that day the two groups had a run in. Basically, right now fighters touring around the country do nothing more than legitimize in people's eyes the local ultra-right movements who take up arms to "protect" people from those tourists. And let's be clear there are ultra-rights on both sides.
So yeah. Masks should go. Bats should go. Ultra-rights should be checked and from now on we should work on rebuilding a functional society.

Now for a quick recap of recent events which I deem important:
- Maydan politicians suggest to create special anti-corruption departments comprising of maydan activists in each ministry. I want to hear surnames and political affiliations (I'd rather they had none) of the candidates before forming a more educated opinion on this move.
The new head of SBU (Nalivaychenko) has used the magic word I've been waiting for for ages (lustration!). SBU too plans to hire new people in leadership positions, many of whom are supposed to be maydan activists.

- EU is still ready to sign the papers on Association but only after a new legitimate president is elected. A very decent stance.
IMF is willing to provide financial aid. The sum is huge and if mishandled will destroy us. I would rather see some binding agreements to ensure the money goes where it's meant to (most importantly - reforms).

- Russia withdraw their financial aid. A predictable and probably correct decision. Medvedev says there will be no sanctions though and the dialog will be renewed when Ukraine has a legitimate government again. Russian ambassador left for Moscow for consultation.
Recent polls in the news show that ~73% of Russians think they should not intervene in our internal affairs, which is also good.

- Tyagnybok suggests to change gun control laws. This is bad bad bad! I was so glad we had reasonable gun control laws, god knows what the death toll would be if a sizable amount of protesters had firearms.
Another questionable lawmaker decision - abolishing the law on local languages. When Yushchenko started forced ukrainization he basically destroyed his base in eastern and southern regions (which was significant, btw) and paved way for Yanukovich to assume his place. The local language laws were actually very reasonable, they alleviated ethno-cultural tension on the periphery to a large extent and let people finally unite on really important social issues. Why make the same mistake again?

Concerning Yanukovich, I sincerely hope they let him leave the country and be forgotten.
I don't want him anywhere in Ukraine, especially in a Ukrainian jail as a political prisoner.
If he is to be tried, this is a job for the International Court of Justice, no less. I don't want ex-opposition to turn him into a martyr, but will be fine with international court's decision.
 

Trueten

Section Moderator
WBVC
Weaver said:
- Tyagnybok suggests to change gun control laws. This is bad bad bad!
Oh, but it's good good good. It's the only way to make our polititians more responsible. It's not concerning protesters, but the whole country. Some people say in response "But tituski will get guns too!". Yes, but: 1. They already use(d) it against protesters (that couldn't shoot back, 'cause they had none); 2. Titushki are hired to make provocations. So this is a deliberate choice. I don't think they would be brave/stupid enough to provoke an armed men. Which means they would better choose not to hire for that. 3. There a lot of people in Ukraine that have guns already and nothing happedned for the last 22 years.

Besides, this also prevents Russia to send some aid troops.



Touching:
 
A population armed to the teeth can serve as deterrent for an invading nation if there is risk of prolonged guerrilla actions. I don't take a stance on the issue though, too lacking in knowledge about contemporary Ukraine.
 

Mage246

trueten said:
Weaver said:
- Tyagnybok suggests to change gun control laws. This is bad bad bad!
Oh, but it's good good good. It's the only way to make our polititians more responsible. It's not concerning protesters, but the whole country. Some people say in response "But tituski will get guns too!". Yes, but: 1. They already use(d) it against protesters (that couldn't shoot back, 'cause they had none); 2. Titushki are hired to make provocations. So this is a deliberate choice. I don't think they would be brave/stupid enough to provoke an armed men. Which means they would better choose not to hire for that. 3. There a lot of people in Ukraine that have guns already and nothing happedned for the last 22 years.

Besides, this also prevents Russia to send some aid troops.
1. The difference between a popular revolt and an armed coup is that a popular revolt has the will of the people behind it - not just guns. If you allow guns, you may make popular revolts slightly easier, but on the flip side you make armed coups (and acts of terrorism) far easier. Part of the strength of a popular revolt is that its participants are willing to die for their cause even when they have no ability to fight back. Nothing scares and unsettles a repressive regime more than when the threat of force is no longer enough to prevent open dissent. Countering force with force, while perhaps an eventual necessity, is not helpful in the early stages. Yes, some people do have to die helplessly in order to prove that the cause is just and rally mass support.

2. You might be right, but then again if you legitimize guns as the building block for all protests you remove the need for provocation. If protesters have guns, all protests are provocations that legitimize the use of force to counter them.

3. So why change the law at all?

4. Civilians with guns are a poor match for a professional military with guns, tanks, planes, training, organization, etc. yes, perhaps you could win (assuming Russia's goal was occupation and not a fast strike to compel obedience - see Georgia), but at what cost? You would lose far more than Russia could. Best defense against Russian aggression is cozying up to EU more or toadying to Russia. Not guns, which frankly have never dissuaded a modern army from invading anything.
 

Chechen!

Si-A-erra. said:
:lol:  few armed citizens won't be able to do **** vs Russian army, lax gun controls are a bad idea.
*cough Chechnya cough*
The scare tactic is against the running Ukrainian government if they decide to get loosy with their guns against protesters again.

It's a stupid though, agreed. If the government and the people have to bully and scare each other into submission, there's something wrong.
 

Trueten

Section Moderator
WBVC
Mage246 said:
3. So why change the law at all?

4. Civilians with guns are a poor match for a professional military with guns, tanks, planes, training, organization, etc. yes, perhaps you could win (assuming Russia's goal was occupation and not a fast strike to compel obedience - see Georgia), but at what cost? You would lose far more than Russia could. Best defense against Russian aggression is cozying up to EU more or toadying to Russia. Not guns, which frankly have never dissuaded a modern army from invading anything.
3. When I say 'people already have guns' I don't mean it as due to law, but due to high corruption. After the collaps of USSR we had a lot of guns left, that were sold out by corrupted army men on a black market. Nobody controlls that. 'Tis nott EU nor 'Murica.

4. I didn't say Russia will send a whole army, but some groups of volunteers that chinese were sending to help North Koread in their war. To prevent that.
And, yes, professional and better armed soldiers would beat an uncontrolled mass of lightly armed people, of course. But as I said a few days back Yanukovich (and only him) had been destroying and reducing the army. The number of army men are smaller than policemen. We couldn't protect ourselfs with it. In this case Russian army (if they somehow decide to use military openly) would not only face our small army, but also a big amount of crazy ****s who even were mad enough not flee en mass under sniper fire being unarmed, but imagine them all armed... The casualties for russian army would be too big, even if they win. Putin would loose a lot in of internal support in that case (not to mention the international arena). And that's when it prevents Putin to even think of that scenario.

Again, I dunno any dictatorship countries where it is allowed for the citizens to have guns. Because guns prevent that. If we had that, we wouldn't had such an amount of corruption. Our polititians have lost any feeling of responsibilty. The major reason of Maidan was the government that acted in a way 'so I'll do this, and you can't do a thing". It wasn't for corruption that a lot of countries have. But, for example - they didn't allow us to choose a mayor! When the mayor escaped and his term run out there should be an elections, but the Parliametn didn't vote to set any. Because Party of Regions knew they will not win, so they just postponed them to an uncertain time.
At the last parliament elections in 2012 Party of Regions and Communists took about 40% of votes, and oppposition parties - 60%. And despite all that they still had a majority in the parliament. How? Because they adopted the law when there are candidates that are elected from districts. They are not in any party. On this districts PR made everything they can to make the only candidate to win. Candidates might say during elections that they are against PR and yet they join their factions when they got to Parliament. Their majority is not constitutional. They do not represent people, but they continue to test our patience. Like "What can you do about it, you worthless peasants? Deal with it!". And even then in the Parliament they adopted lwas in an unlawful way - when half of the faction is absent ('cause they are all businessmen and they do not have time to work in Parliament), but their fellow deputies simply vote for them by using their cards. In this way the adopted any ****ty law they wanted. Hell, if you only saw how do they vote! There's a guy called Chechetov, he stands up looks to the list and raises hand to show other deputies whether they should vote or not for the chosen law/parliament decision. And... "What can we do about it? Nothing, because we, simple folk, have no ways to influence them." Do not wote for them? Blah, they will operate the election results in any way they want. BUT, if we had guns...



BTW, dunno if I posted it before:
 

Almalexia

Her Flamboyance, the Calipha
Duke
M&BWBNW
trueten said:
4. I didn't say Russia will send a whole army, but some groups of volunteers that chinese were sending to help North Koread in their war. To prevent that.

Not that I don't get what you're advocating here or disagreeing, but I'm pretty sure the Chinese sent a million man army to help North Korea during the war, not groups of volunteers.
 
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