Ukraine 8-12 USA (Quarter Final A) Deadline: 07/05/2011

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Rhade

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BoPoH said:
Mr.X said:
Obviously you think it's an advantage to have him
We dont think him as advantage, according to the ping he was balancing it.
Please, tell me where it is said, that we must say that our player is from USA. Any rule or so on.
Also, he was late for the begining of the game.

Anyway, you won, I just hate when referees create new rules during the match.
Honestly, this is all quite silly. I was hoping to avoid this drama, but, once again, it seems like it needs to be stirred up.

You must be joking to think that, in this situation of playing a "home" and "away" server type set-up, that it's not a huge blow to the fairness of the system to have a player on your team that pings better to our "home" server than we do. Givi, the player in question, was subbed in a week prior to the match, did not play on your server, and lives in America. It wasn't a "new rule created", it was a judgment call done by Lust to protect the fairness of the match and keep as even a playing field as possible -- You guys had 8 without him, so subbing him in for our server and taking him out for your server is not only unnecessary, it's just not really that fair, to be quite frank.

The entire problem lies soley on the fact that we spent so long attempting to make the matches fair, pingwise, for both parties, and they were as fair as could be expected by both sides, even if I had to play with 170 ping on your server. It's not even so much about averages as it's about you having a slight advantage on your server of choice, and a slight disadvantage on the away server. Givi's presence places someone who, on your "away" server (our "home"), you have a player that has an amazing ping, and his survivability is just as high as ours. I think we can all agree that in a high ping situation, your options as a player decrease, and you're forced to play extremely passively. Both teams take this into account when devising tactics and classes, yet Givi living in the USA and pinging lower to our server than we do throws that into a mess. All of the fairness and work was put in with the understanding the Ukraine was playing the USA, and it was a silent, unwritten understanding by all that when, attempting to figure out what servers would be most fair, people in Ukraine are playing people in the USA. It really would be quite unfair if we had 8 American citizens living in the Ukraine who didn't show up to ping testing but we just decided to sub them in last week to play on your server, yet we didn't say anything when making plans to have one "home" server and an "away" server. The entire system is structured around attempting to devise situations that are fair because of the large ping differential, but the X-factor of having a Ukraine-passport wielding person who lives in America bypasses this voluntary weakness the USA agreed to by playing the "home/away" system. Designing a system where both teams will accept a disadvantage for half the matches due to high ping, and then having one team bypassing that required built in advantage/disadvantage system is simply not fair when both teams are not embracing their advantage/disadvantage when the time requires it.

Furthermore, beyond all of that subjective opinion, the fact is that you subbed an American (lives in America but has a Ukraine passport or some sort of dual citizenship, what have you) player in a week prior to your match with us, and he did not play with you on your server (why would he? We were at 170, so he would be too), yet he conveniently is able to play when you're playing on our server. Let's be frank here: Why would a Ukraine team enlist someone living in America to play for them, unless it's to play against the American team on the American server to gain a "leg up?" You obviously had enough players to not need him when you played us on your server, because he would lag terribly, yet when it came time to switch he seemed to be able to play. He didn't show up for ping testing whatsoever, so all of us were completely uninformed about him and we all made the decisions on the server not understanding this extremely extenuating circumstance. Not only did you not, in good faith, disclose something vitally important to the balance discussions beforehand, but you're also failing to recognize the imbalance this would cause and bringing this up is only going to cause things to get messy, bloody and personal when, in all honesty, the match was well done and fair, in no small part because the fairness we spent a week on attempting to create was upheld.

 

BoPoH

Sergeant
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Rhade said:
BoPoH said:
Mr.X said:
Obviously you think it's an advantage to have him
We dont think him as advantage, according to the ping he was balancing it.
Please, tell me where it is said, that we must say that our player is from USA. Any rule or so on.
Also, he was late for the begining of the game.

Anyway, you won, I just hate when referees create new rules during the match.
Honestly, this is all quite silly.

You must be joking to think that, in this situation of playing a "home" and "away" server type set-up, that it's not a huge blow to the fairness of the system to have a player on your team that pings better to our "home" server than we do. It wasn't a "new rule created", it was a judgment call done by Lust to protect the fairness of the match and keep as even a playing field as possible -- You guys had 8 without him, so subbing him in for our server and taking him out for your server is not only unnecessary, it's just not really that fair, to be quite frank.

The entire problem lies soley on the fact that we spent so long attempting to make the matches fair, pingwise, for both parties, and they were as fair as could be expected by both sides, even if I had to play with 170 ping on your server. It's not even so much about averages as it's about you having a slight advantage on your server of choice, and a slight disadvantage on the away server. Givi's presence places someone who, on your "away" server (our "home"), you have a player that has an amazing ping, and his survivability is just as high as ours. I think we can all agree that in a high ping situation, your options as a player decrease, and you're forced to play extremely passively. Both teams take this into account when devising tactics and classes, yet Givi living in the USA and pinging lower to our server than we do throws that into a mess.

Furthermore, beyond all of that subjective opinion, the fact is that you subbed an American (lives in America but has a Ukraine passport or some sort of dual citizenship, what have you) player in a week prior to your match with us, and he did not play with you on your server (why would he? We were at 170, so he would be too), yet he conveniently is able to play when you're playing on our server. Let's be frank here: Why would a Ukraine team enlist someone living in America to play for them, unless it's to play against the American team on the American server to gain a "leg up?" You obviously had enough players to not need him when you played us on your server, because he would lag terribly, yet when it came time to switch he seemed to be able to play. He didn't show up for ping testing whatsoever, so all of us were completely uninformed about him and we all made the decisions on the server not understanding this extremely extenuating circumstance. Not only did you not, in good faith, disclose something vitally important to the balance discussions beforehand, but you're also failing to recognize the imbalance this would cause and bringing this up is only going to cause things to get messy, bloody and personal when, in all honesty, the match was well done and fair, in no small part because the fairness we spent a week on attempting to create was upheld.
You know, I could say that playong on your home server with a ping lower than a 30 when enemy playong 120-170 is not really balanced. But I've already told it before, just read.

We got the situation when our official player was not allowed to play. And we dont break any rules. Referees just say without mantioned any rules.
Fine. Just perfect.
We are not obliged to do something, but we get penalty for non-doing this.

Should use it on next ENPL games.
 

Rhade

Master Knight
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BoPoH said:
Rhade said:
BoPoH said:
Mr.X said:
Obviously you think it's an advantage to have him
We dont think him as advantage, according to the ping he was balancing it.
Please, tell me where it is said, that we must say that our player is from USA. Any rule or so on.
Also, he was late for the begining of the game.

Anyway, you won, I just hate when referees create new rules during the match.
Honestly, this is all quite silly.

You must be joking to think that, in this situation of playing a "home" and "away" server type set-up, that it's not a huge blow to the fairness of the system to have a player on your team that pings better to our "home" server than we do. It wasn't a "new rule created", it was a judgment call done by Lust to protect the fairness of the match and keep as even a playing field as possible -- You guys had 8 without him, so subbing him in for our server and taking him out for your server is not only unnecessary, it's just not really that fair, to be quite frank.

The entire problem lies soley on the fact that we spent so long attempting to make the matches fair, pingwise, for both parties, and they were as fair as could be expected by both sides, even if I had to play with 170 ping on your server. It's not even so much about averages as it's about you having a slight advantage on your server of choice, and a slight disadvantage on the away server. Givi's presence places someone who, on your "away" server (our "home"), you have a player that has an amazing ping, and his survivability is just as high as ours. I think we can all agree that in a high ping situation, your options as a player decrease, and you're forced to play extremely passively. Both teams take this into account when devising tactics and classes, yet Givi living in the USA and pinging lower to our server than we do throws that into a mess.

Furthermore, beyond all of that subjective opinion, the fact is that you subbed an American (lives in America but has a Ukraine passport or some sort of dual citizenship, what have you) player in a week prior to your match with us, and he did not play with you on your server (why would he? We were at 170, so he would be too), yet he conveniently is able to play when you're playing on our server. Let's be frank here: Why would a Ukraine team enlist someone living in America to play for them, unless it's to play against the American team on the American server to gain a "leg up?" You obviously had enough players to not need him when you played us on your server, because he would lag terribly, yet when it came time to switch he seemed to be able to play. He didn't show up for ping testing whatsoever, so all of us were completely uninformed about him and we all made the decisions on the server not understanding this extremely extenuating circumstance. Not only did you not, in good faith, disclose something vitally important to the balance discussions beforehand, but you're also failing to recognize the imbalance this would cause and bringing this up is only going to cause things to get messy, bloody and personal when, in all honesty, the match was well done and fair, in no small part because the fairness we spent a week on attempting to create was upheld.
You know, I could say that playong on your home server with a ping lower than a 30 when enemy playong 120-170 is not really balanced. But I've already told it before, just read.

We got the situation when our official player was not allowed to play. And we dont break any rules. Referees just say without mantioned any rules.
Fine. Just perfect.
We are not obliged to do something, but we get penalty for non-doing this.

Should use it on next ENPL games.
Quite a few of us had 50-60 on our home server, thanks.

I really wanted to avoid this, so I'm just going to hold back from saying everything I'd really, really like to say to you at this point and stop this conversation here and now and wait for Lust to lock it.

Good games, Ukraine, on your handpicked server and on our handpicked server.

 

BoPoH

Sergeant
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I'd really, really like to say to you
Oh my, tnx for saving my time reading your posts.

Anyway, as I said before - I'm not arguing for the match and results, just hate non-rule based decissions during match.

GG  USA,  and I wish you luck in next match.
 

JoG

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&S
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OK, you wanted it, you have it.

The Tyranny of the Minority at its finest. I guess, everyone who plays with me on US servers or talks to me in vent knows I'm Ukrainian (well, my accent in vent and spelling mistakes I make in the chat speak for it). Since the very beginning of the Nations Cup thingy I wanted to participate in my national team (RUM in 2010, Ukraine in 2011). However, time differences did not allow me to do that. Neither could I particitape in the team training sessions, nor play NC matches because I usually worked at this time. Because of the cancellation of UA-Canada match, THE ONLY CHANCE I HAD to play as a part of my team was UA-USA match, yet I lost this opportunity due to the US team whining and violation of the NC rules by both referees. First, they questioned my Ukrainian citizenship (yet Scott Ray who was a member of cRPG nK definitely knows I'm Ukrainian), second, they considered the presence of the only guy with 50 ping in 8-men team on US server "an unfair advantage" (yet everyone who is in a clan and plays Warband for more than a month knows that at this level of competition one fighter cannot decide the outcome of the battle). OK, let's do some calculations then.

Average ping of the Ukrainian team on US server (Patriot substituted me in the game): 127.88
Average ping of the Ukrainian team on US server (with me): 119.25

Such a "dramatic" difference, isn't it?

Average ping of the American team on US server: 39.13

OK, let's continue the calculations:

Average ping of the American team on EU server: 128.75

Average ping of the Ukrainian team on EU server: 51.25

So, as you can see, the American team had a ping advantage on "home" server (which my presence in UA team roster was supposed to compensate), while the average ping on "away" server was identical for both teams. I call it a tyranny of the minority at its finest. I remember, the referees and the organizing committee paid much attention to overcome this situation. Well, all I can say is this that their real actions speak for themselves. They did everything to actually make it (tyranny of the minority) happen. Thus, I want to express my deepest appreciation to both of our referees for not allowing me (the actual member of team Ukraine) to play, thus VIOLATING NOT ONLY THE OFFICIAL RULES OF THE TOURNAMENT they organized BUT ALSO THE OBVIOUS "FAIR PLAY" rule.

What I can say about one of the US team captains is that I lost the very last portion of respect I had to him. This situation, his behavior and his posts in this thread confirmed again that he's nothing but a whiner. Obviously, words are the last resort of the man who cannot take his own by his personal skill.

Furthermore, it is my duty to warn other EU teams that will play with the US team about the **** that happened. Don't expect fair play from the team USA.
 

Rhade

Master Knight
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JoG said:
What I can say about one of the US team captains is that I lost the very last portion of respect I had to him. This situation, his behavior and his posts in this thread confirmed again that he's nothing but a winner.
Agreed.
 

Mr.X

JoG said:
OK, you wanted it, you have it.

The Tyranny of the Minority at its finest. I guess, everyone who plays with me on US servers or talks to me in vent knows I'm Ukrainian (well, my accent in vent and spelling mistakes I make in the chat speak for it). Since the very beginning of the Nations Cup thingy I wanted to participate in my national team (RUM in 2010, Ukraine in 2011). However, time differences did not allow me to do that. Neither could I particitape in the team training sessions, nor play NC matches because I usually worked at this time. Because of the cancellation of UA-Canada match, THE ONLY CHANCE I HAD to play as a part of my team was UA-USA match, yet I lost this opportunity due to the US team whining and violation of the NC rules by both referees. First, they questioned my Ukrainian citizenship (yet Scott Ray who was a member of cRPG nK definitely knows I'm Ukrainian), second, they considered the presence of the only guy with 50 ping in 8-men team on US server "an unfair advantage" (yet everyone who is in a clan and plays Warband for more than a month knows that at this level of competition one fighter cannot decide the outcome of the battle). OK, let's do some calculations then.

Average ping of the Ukrainian team on US server (Patriot substituted me in the game): 127.88
Average ping of the Ukrainian team on US server (with me): 119.25

Such a "dramatic" difference, isn't it?

Average ping of the American team on US server: 39.13

OK, let's continue the calculations:

Average ping of the American team on EU server: 128.75

Average ping of the Ukrainian team on EU server: 51.25

So, as you can see, the American team had a ping advantage on "home" server (which my presence in UA team roster was supposed to compensate), while the average ping on "away" server was identical for both teams. I call it a tyranny of the minority at its finest. I remember, the referees and the organizing committee paid much attention to overcome this situation. Well, all I can say is this that their real actions speak for themselves. They did everything to actually make it (tyranny of the minority) happen. Thus, I want to express my deepest appreciation to both of our referees for not allowing me (the actual member of team Ukraine) to play, thus VIOLATING THE OFFICIAL RULES OF THE TOURNAMENT they organized.

What I can say about one of the US team captains is that I lost the very last portion of respect I had to him. This situation, his behavior and his posts in this thread confirmed again that he's nothing but a whiner.

Ok, first off, let me start by saying that I don't know what the phrase "tyranny of the minority" means, so either explain it to me, or stop using.

Secondly,
Taking the averages of the ping is not the point. The point is that we spent a lot of time trying to find fair servers based on ping. I think it's very obvious that your ping is significantly different from the rest of your team's ping. When we checked servers before the match, you were never present, nor was your ping mentioned. It should have been obvious when we were doing ping checks that your ping, being severely different from your team's, should have been mentioned. And having 1 player with good ping on the "away" server makes a huge difference. I can guarantee that if, say, Rhade, or really anyone on our team, had 46 ping on your server (the "away" server for us), the scores would have been a lot different.  We sat at least 4 players on your server due to ping. Add the time it takes to figure out the servers due to the changes right before the match, and the time spent arguing this, one of our players didn't get to play either. He had an hour and a half set aside for this match, but he couldn't play the first 5 rounds because his ping was around 180, and he couldn't play the second 5 rounds because it started 5 minutes before he had to leave, and we wouldn't have been able to sub someone in for him.

The ruling was that Givi wasn't allowed to play due to the secretive nature of his presence. Yes, it was made as a sub, but no one thought to ask if he lived in the USA simply because we would never expect anyone to pull something like that. Then he was not mentioned at ping checks, where his presence, or lack of, is vital to our decisions. I can guarantee that if his presence was known beforehand, the server situation would have also been different.
 

JoG

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&S
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Mr.X said:
Ok, first off, let me start by saying that I don't know what the phrase "tyranny of the minority" means, so either explain it to me, or stop using.
Basically, it means that all EU teams should participate in the ping lottery while playing with the US/Canadian teams.

Mr.X said:
Secondly,
Taking the averages of the ping is not the point. The point is that we spent a lot of time trying to find fair servers based on ping. I think it's very obvious that your ping is significantly different from the rest of your team's ping. When we checked servers before the match, you were never present, nor was your ping mentioned. It should have been obvious when we were doing ping checks that your ping, being severely different from your team's, should have been mentioned. And having 1 player with good ping on the "away" server makes a huge difference. I can guarantee that if, say, Rhade, or really anyone on our team, had 46 ping on your server (the "away" server for us), the scores would have been a lot different.  We sat at least 4 players on your server due to ping. Add the time it takes to figure out the servers due to the changes right before the match, and the time spent arguing this, one of our players didn't get to play either. He had an hour and a half set aside for this match, but he couldn't play the first 5 rounds because his ping was around 180, and he couldn't play the second 5 rounds because it started 5 minutes before he had to leave, and we wouldn't have been able to sub someone in for him.
Well, it's really hard for me to explain obvious things to the man who obviously knows them (for he is a clan member and probably participates in clan matches) but denies them because the denial of these facts is advantageous for him at the moment.
From my personal experience (I played Warband MP since the early closed beta), if the teams are about equal in terms of skill,  the presence of the one guy with 50 ping can hardly change anything if the whole 8-men team has an average ping of 120+ (Of course, you will deny this, the demagogy is so attractive). If our teams played a 2 vs 2 or a 3 vs 3 match, you would be definitely right, but we played 8 vs 8.
Mr.X said:
The ruling was that Givi wasn't allowed to play due to the secretive nature of his presence. Yes, it was made as a sub, but no one thought to ask if he lived in the USA simply because we would never expect anyone to pull something like that. Then he was not mentioned at ping checks, where his presence, or lack of, is vital to our decisions. I can guarantee that if his presence was known beforehand, the server situation would have also been different.
I'm sorry that the following words might sound rude to you, but I don't believe noone in your team knew who I am. Sorry, but that's just bu... well... not true. And you definitely knew that I was the member of team Ukraine, since you made the post about substituting Fortinbras for Agoptagoat right after Evgen's post about me being a member of UA team.
It made no sense for me to become the official member of team Ukraine earlier, because I could not attend trainings and participate in the matches due to the time difference.
Second, I was late for the match because I had to carry out some experiment at the university, so I physically cound not be present at the ping checks. Still, I promised Evgen that I would come to participate, and I came to play the match, but the referees had their own point of view on the official tournament rules. So, that was a waste of personal time as well.

I'm over, now it makes no sense to write in this thread for me for noone would hear.
 

Rhade

Master Knight
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I think it would have been different, had your team reported the nature of your ping, but more importantly, if you were going to play every map; IE play on the Ukraine servers AND the US servers. I, and I think everyone, would have been totally fine with you playing, *if you played every map*, but we both know you were only going to play on the American server and a Ukraine based player would take your spot on the Ukraine servers. I highly doubt you were going to play on the Ukraine servers, and I highly doubt the only reason you never played with Ukraine before was simply time differences. The simple fact is, you were going to play for the Ukraine team, against America, while living in America and taking advantage of your geographical location to gain an edge on our team, pingwise, an advantage that simply would not be fair.

The elephant in the middle of the room is the fact that you didn't play with Ukraine beforehand because you wouldn't be able to play with them due to the extreme ping differences, which is exactly why your presence today would have caused problems; it bridges that gap for them, and our gap was not being bridged by someone playing in the Ukraine. If we had a member in the Ukraine so we could have a member with 50 ping on their server, it would have been a different story.

I'm sorry you didn't get to play. Perhaps sign up for the US team next year, while you're still living in America.

 

BlackTide

Duke
WB
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As you have said Givi, one man on a team of 8 does not make a difference and so there is no need to disscuss this further. Wether Givi was there or not the US would still have won and therefore there is nothing to argue about, unless of course it comes down to you being upset about not playing in a warbands match, in which case I'm sure there are more things than this in your life to get worked up about.
 
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Thanks Team Ukraine for the calculations but I think all they show is that I did a superb job organising the servers :razz:. Seriously, I was less than 1ms out? I deserve a ****ing medal.

At this point, it is worth noting that I only ever tried to match the high pings. "ping difference", in this situation isn't worth worrying about. When playing against high pingers, the difference between having 50 or 30 ping is completely irrelevant. It sounds like you had a fair, competitive and enjoyable match. I'd like to thank both teams for their cooperation and also Kherven, for lending out the TMW server.

If what X said is true (that Kherven won't lend out the server anymore) then it'll be very disappointing for USA's future in the tournament but I hope that it isn't the case.

I am going to lock this thread now, as the discussions are quite petty and meaningless. I'm sorry, Ukraine, if you feel punished by the decision not to let Givi play but Willy and I were in total agreement and we're happy with the decision. The reasons were already outlined in the steam chat and I don't think it's necessary to drag up the discussion again.

However, I wish you all the best for your future Warband exploits and hope you'll bring a team again, next year :smile:.

USA, good luck in your match against France. I believe the French already did some server testing but I will be in contact with both teams, making sure your next match is as fair and competitive as this one.
 
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