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The Pope

Sergeant Knight
I've seen quite a few good suggestions regarding the games damage system. I'll try to put together the ones I remember in this thread.

WOUNDS:
Hits would have a chance of having temporary (longest being until the end of the round) effects depending on the damage type and where they hit. Here's a list of the wounds and effects I could think of:

-Cutting-
Bleeding: A cutting damage hit that penetrates armor will add an open wound. Each open wound will add a cumulative fatigue degeneration, which is more serious for high damage hits. Enough open wounds and fatigue will get stuck below 0, resulting in death/unconsciousness.
Cleft Skull: If a cutting weapon does enough damage to the head in a single blow, death/unconsciousness is instant.
Disabled arm: high damage after armor will result in reduced ranged accuracy and melee damage.
Disabled leg: The character will be slowed down if they take enough damage after armor.

-Blunt-
*Blunt damage hits don't need to penetrate armor. However, they generally need to do a fair bit more damage to cause wounds.*
Broken Arm: High damage arm hits reduce ranged accuracy and melee damage for the rest of the battle.
Broken Leg: Leg hits slow a character down for the rest of the round if they do enough damage.
Broken Rib: A hit to the chest will introduce fatigue degen, much like bleeding.
Concussion: Headshots with blunt weapons will cause temporary slowdown and blurred vision. Unlike most effects, this only lasts a few seconds rather than the rest of the round.
Cracked Skull: High damage headshots are instant kill/KO.

-Piercing-
Vital Organ Damage: Torso shots which penetrate armor and do sufficient damage will introduce major fatigue degen, resulting in death/unconsciousness after a few seconds.
Punctured Skull: Death/Unconsciousness.

FATIGUE:
Replacing hit points (which become an unnecessary abstraction with the wounds system) with regenerating stamina would add to the tactical side of the battles. Both doing things and taking damage would reduce it, though it would only go below 25% or so with hits - no running yourself into unconsciousness.  Speed, accuracy and damage would drop with fatigue, and if it went below 0 the character would be on the ground until it went back up to 0. It would regen faster at lower numbers, as a quick pause makes a big difference when exhausted but does little when rested.

WEAPONS:
I'd recommend a few changes to weapon stats. Damage would be replaced by penetration and impact, and knockdown would be a weapon trait (like shieldbreaker) rather than being tied to blunt weapons.

Penetration: If the hits has penetration is above the armors deflection stat, a penetrating hit is caused. Chance and severity of wounds is increased as the difference between Penetration and Deflection increases. This stat doesn't appear on blunt weapons.
Impact: If a hit does not penetrate, it does this much blunt damage instead. Blunt damage is reduced by an armors padding stat, and like cutting/piercing the chance and severity of wounds is increased as more damage gets through the padding.

ARMOR:
As with weapons, I'd like a few changes to how armor works. Here's the all new statline:

Deflection: The ability of armor to stop hits going through and hitting the flesh underneath.
Padding: Allows armor to soak up blunt damage.
Coverage: Which areas the armor protects. Body armor needs Torso, Shoulders and Thighs ticked for full coverage while helmets are split up into full and open face.
Encumbrance: How much the armor slows movement.
Weight: How much the armor reduces fatigue regen.
Traits: Armor can have special bonuses like weapons here. An example would include Mongol/Khergit silk shirts reducing the chance of wounds from piercing attacks.

edit: SPRINTING:
Not really a damage system thing, but if fatigue is added then I'd say there should be a sprint button. It would make you move faster but drain fatigue faster and leave you defenceless until you stop.

Anyone have any comments or suggestions?

Edit: Just doing an experiment on which title gets more views :razz:. This one comes from the fact that I've got gold text in my example description window.
 
with the piercing damage i think becasue it is more dangerous than all the others it should be harder to do bigger damage with
 
Piercing weapons only have effects for critical (about 25+ after armor) hits, so essentially they'll either kill in one go or do not much. No river pirates wandering around nonchalantly with a javelin through their face. On the flipside, no more taking down dark knights with a short bow.
 
In darklands there is penetration + fatigue.  I think it models medieval combat fairly well.  If your fatigue runs out first, you are basically knocked out or else exhausted/subdued.  If a blow does not penetrate it causes mainly fatigue damage - it stuns you, basically.  If it does then it causes damage to health and if it gets to zero, you are dead.  Actual health damage would also heal VERY slowly, whereas the fatigue would heal very fast - mostly being recouped after battle.

In that system blunt weapons do a lot of damage but usually can't penetrate plate, whereas morningstars and picks can do so.
 
PIL313 说:
would a pick really be able to penetrate plate armor?

A military pick or greathammer with a spike on the end would be able to.  A greathammer uses the head to knock them down (or to crush their skull if they are in chain) and then the spike to finish them off.
 
Thats what picks were designed for.

I've had a few ideas for improvements to this system since I originally posted it. First up, weapons will do impact damage regardless of whether they penetrate armor - penetrating armor wouldn't make a weapon less likely to break bones, after all. This makes axes a very nasty weapon which has a good chance of causing both bleeding and broken bones with one hit :twisted:. Another idea was that since this would require an overhaul of the item stats anyway, it would be a good time to improve the rather bland item description windows. Here's a quick photoshop, which shows how nice they can be with both teh grafix and some flavour text:

ItemWindow.jpg


What do people think?

BTW how well does darklands work on modern computers? I've heard good things about it, but I'm not sure if I want to put myself through the bother required to get a lot of dos games to work.
 
What about a min vs max damage? (eg. sword - damage = 2-10) rather than a fixed value?

That way piercing can be the weapon choice of 2 extremes (eg. 1 - 30 damage) as you would do 1 damage for hitting nothing, but 30 for piercing through a vital organ - such as the testice? Just a thought... but yeah you get the picture...

That way, there is a lil' more variation to hits as well, as you wouldn't be constantly doing full damage, while at the same time opening the opportunity for 'crit hits' ? ::\
 
There's already a fair bit of variation based on relative speed of the blade and its target. Swings which connect too early or too late will do very little, for example. The main idea for this system is that each wound would have a damage threshold and if you do enough damage to a location after armor, it causes a wound. If not, it just takes away a bit of fatigue. It would also be really good to have a Gothic style finishing off animation for people who fall down after going below 0 stamina.
 
Yeah true... forgot about the speed effect - screw my prev suggestion; we got enough variation haha.

And yeah, stamina would be good.. I've been praying for it to be added into horses for a while now ::grin: (obviously god works in a mysterious way ::razz:)
 
Actually come to think of it a stamina/wound system for horses would be great too. Do you go for the tough steppe horse or the easily tired but deadly charger?
 
The Pope 说:
BTW how well does darklands work on modern computers? I've heard good things about it, but I'm not sure if I want to put myself through the bother required to get a lot of dos games to work.

It runs on my Windows XP using DOSBox. I just unzip the thing onto my harddrive, start DOSBox, mount the directory, and run. No fiddling needed.

http://dosbox.sourceforge.net

By the way, nice thread title.
 
The fatigue could be a great thing if implemented properly.  Lots of potential there, though I don't think it would be an easy task to balance it all.


Edit: do as fisheye says!  Darklands is great, and dosbox is amazing.  I ahve been able to play all my favorite oldies!  Darklands has a klunky interface (I think it was the first mouse based game I ever played), but stick with its quirks and you will be glad you did so!
 
Nice idea. Definatly worth thinking on. At least have someone mod it. Possible horse armor? I would for sure have this with the stats. I say. Put some empahsis of getting that good helmet.

Anyway what about hands? Maybe numb them?

Heres a system of mine.
Crushing-great against plate.
stabing.-great against chain armor.
cutting.-great against hides and leather.
---Very much as axes do more damage on shields. Just a bonus to the attacks.---
Light projectiles(arrows)- Steady and constant impalment at any range.-+1
Medium projectiles(bolts)-slight impalment at medium and close up higher.-+3, (+1)
Heavy projectiles(thrown javelins and spears)-Hghest impalement.(+4)
Just has armor penetration bonus. Small ones but can be the deciding blow.these are not exact values so feel free to change them.
Adds some more to this idea.

It is not perfect so please build or remove ideas of mine, feel free to overkill it.
 
The idea is that this system would simulate those effects rather than having a hardcoded rock paper scissors system. Mail would have excellent padding and good deflection, so it would make weapons like swords (which would have decent but not great penetration and impact) and arrows from smaller bows ineffective against it. To take down a mail armored enemy quickly you would need pick, thrusting sword, spear, crossbow or a longbow. Particularly high impact weapons like maces would also be good, as they could put enough damage through the padding to drop the targets fatigue quickly even if they don't actually break bones. Plate armor would have excellent deflection but not quite as good padding as mail, so only crushing weapons and the very best penetrating weapons would be much use - picks, heavy crossbows and longbows at short range. With most weapons you would need to bludgeon a knights fatigue down to 0 then press the use key to perform a finishing off animation (knife through the visor or the gothic style downward stab, for example) when he's down rather than causing wounds with your normal attacks.

The only fudge the system needs is giving fibrous armors (cloth, leather etc.) a special ability for bonus deflection vs. piercing damage to represent the fact that they were considered quite a good defence against bows but not edged weapons. As for ranged weapons, most of them fit in with this system quite well - the only change I'd want is tie the damage to the ammo. The bow/crossbow would effect damage with projectile speed. It might also be good to split bows/arrows into large and small - the yard long arrows launched from longbows wouldn't even fit in a shortbow.

Seeing as cost and required character skill are factors, realism will provide its own balance. Want the best plate armor? You'd better be rich. Want a longbow? You'd better have a very strong character. No need to force a cheesy RTS style rock paper scissors system if you take all the realistic factors into account.
 
The Pope 说:
Actually come to think of it a stamina/wound system for horses would be great too. Do you go for the tough steppe horse or the easily tired but deadly charger?

I meant my other suggestion of damage variation to weapons being crappy ::smile:

As far as stamina suggestions regarding horses go, flip through the Enhancing Horses thread ::smile: The stamina section could possibly be linked to humans as well.. but yeah thats pretty much what we have so far there ::\ If you can think of a better stamina system that would be good ::smile:
 
I meant more along the lines of applying this system to horses and horse armor. As for really enhancing horses, I'd say the best thing to do would be to turn them into NPCs with their own skill tree and levels rather than just being pieces of equipment. If you 'talked' to your horse you'd get options to open its character screen and its inventory. They would be 'recruited' form a stable master NPC and would join you rather than be taken prisoner if you captured them. If you tried to 'talk' to one which belongs to a friendly NPC it would just say nay and you wouldn't be able to steal it's armor.

Of course, thats a very major overhaul that could make a patch take a very long time :sad:
 
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