U.S Fed. Government Shutdown!

[Sir Saladin]

I know about the reference hence the (irl) next to Cruz.

As for foreign, it sounds Spanish and thus he must be a closet illegal

Mexicans didn't invent the Spanish language and Spanish names you know.

 

[Mage246]

@Rallix:

Still separate from the shut down. If the government needs to cut spending, it has to develop a plan to cut spending while still fulfilling its obligations under law. If it cannot fulfill its obligations, it must change the law so that it can. That's not at all what is happening here. This is what is happening:

Law X is passed by both houses of Congress, signed in to law by the President, and confirmed Constitutional by the Supreme Court. The law includes provisions describing how it will be paid for.

Control of 1 house of Congress passes to the other party. That party tries to overturn the law. The attempt fails. They try again, the attempt fails. They try a few dozen more times. All failures.

When it comes time to provide a bill describing how Congress is going to pay for the programs established by law, one house submits a bill that is missing the provisions that would pay for the law. The other house refuses to pass this bill, since it is missing elements that are already part of US law. The first house refuses to propose any further spending bills with the provisions required.

And so, since Congress has failed to pass a spending bill, parts of the government had to shut down. This isn't about general spending being out of control, this is about opposition to a single bill that has already become law.

If you or I tried to follow this logic in real life (refusing to pay our taxes because we object to a single law funded by those taxes), we would be arrested.

 

[RalliX]

You are making sense to me here. Good job.
Now allow me to proceed to make no sense at all. Like so.

隐藏

 

[Moose!]

Know what I say? I say cut everything in that pie chart in half or less, except for the interest payments which may double, to perhaps start paying off some principal.

That would put us in another recession. This would increase the debt/deficit even further because there won't be enough tax revenue to pay for the severely reduced spending. You'll notice why no one really cared about the public debt/budget deficit before the recession? That's because the recession exacerbated the national debt/deficit, not the other way around (unless you are referring to the increase in private debt, which most certainly contributed to the recession).

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

This is what happens when America invades a small nation and doesn't finish the job. If they're going to do the whole pseudo-empire thing and dance around international law, might as well go all the way or suffer the financial consequences.

 

[RalliX]

Know what I say? I say cut everything in that pie chart in half or less, except for the interest payments which may double, to perhaps start paying off some principal.

That would put us in another recession. This may increase the debt even further because there won't be enough tax revenue to pay for the severely reduced spending. You'll notice why no one really cared about the public debt before the recession? That's because the recession exacerbated the national debt, not the other way around (unless you are referring to the increase in private debt, which most certainly contributed to the recession).

Hmm.
Decrease in spending=Decrease in taxation, which means that the private sector has more funds, about 10% more(If the 20 percent public expenditure of GDP does decrease by 50%). This would help decrease private debt as well as increase private spending.

So, you're saying that the revenue gained from spending money is enough to pay for the spending? And that this in fact isn't the very cause of the incredibly massive debt?

 

[Baron Conrad]

Does anyone here work for a part of the Fed that is now closed?

 

[Feragorn]

Know what I say? I say cut everything in that pie chart in half or less, except for the interest payments which may double, to perhaps start paying off some principal.

That would put us in another recession. This may increase the debt even further because there won't be enough tax revenue to pay for the severely reduced spending. You'll notice why no one really cared about the public debt before the recession? That's because the recession exacerbated the national debt, not the other way around (unless you are referring to the increase in private debt, which most certainly contributed to the recession).

Hmm.
Decrease in spending=Decrease in taxation, which means that the private sector has more funds, about 10% more(If the 20 percent public expenditure of GDP does decrease by 50%). This would help decrease private debt as well as increase private spending.

So, you're saying that the revenue gained from spending money is enough to pay for the spending? And that this in fact isn't the very cause of the incredibly massive debt?

Total US revenue was ~2.5 trillion last year. We spent a little over 3.5 trillion. That's a budget deficit of 1 trillion dollars. Where do you propose we cut spending? Remember, you need to cut at least 1 trillion dollars so we break even. Ignore the total debt for now.

 

[Mad Vader]

Does anyone here work for a part of the Fed that is now closed?

I guess some people sound like they might work in a zoo, not sure if voluntarily.

 

[Moose!]

Hmm.
Decrease in spending=Decrease in taxation

Not at all. You do realize that a huge portion of the most visible government spending (the stimulus) in response to the recession was tax relief? Over 288 billion dollars were spent cutting taxes. This component of the bill was more than twice the size of the second largest component (providing aid to the state and local governments).

which means that the private sector has more funds

Yes. That is why the stimulus (read - government spending) worked - we spent money reducing government revenue to increase spending in the private sector.

So, you're saying that the revenue gained from spending money

No. Are you dense? The government doesn't gain revenue from spending. It gains revenue from taxes.

is enough to pay for the spending? And that this in fact isn't the very cause of the incredibly massive debt?

No. I'm saying that the debt only became a problem when the recession hit. Look at this chart for a minute.

隐藏

You'll notice that government revenue sharply declined at the same time as government spending increased. The reason for this was twofold - on the one hand, government spending (tax cuts) reduced revenue. On the other hand, a private sector in recession doesn't make as much money, meaning that the government can't collect as much revenue.

I think you're problem is that you are looking at the national debt (which looks scary because it constantly increases). The national debt is really just a reflection of the budget deficit. We are running a budget deficit, and we've been running a budget deficit for a long time, but it wasn't an issue until the recession actually hit. It is the discrepancy between spending and revenue, and not the overall total debt that we should be concerned with. And as that graph clearly shows, this discrepancy (which was huge during the recession) is getting smaller now that we are no longer in a recession.

 

[Ambalon]

Can someone here explain what exactly is happening to someone not that well versed in US politics?

 

[Mage246]

I thought I already did...

 

[Devercia]

The economic right is so hell bent on stopping government subsidiezed healthcare that it is compelling the right dominated House of Representatives to essentially go on strike when it comes to creating a budget. Everyone is pissed, even the moderate right, who in the same step must pander the the extreme right in order to get elected.

 

[Moose!]

Can someone here explain what exactly is happening to someone not that well versed in US politics?

I just hope we reach the debt ceiling and go over the fiscal cliff. Then Rallix's policy can be put into action and we'll really see what extreme "spending cuts" will do to the global economy.

 

[rebelsquirrell]

Relevant @ 20 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETlx5vnOXDM

 

[RalliX]

Can someone here explain what exactly is happening to someone not that well versed in US politics?

I just hope we reach the debt ceiling and go over the fiscal cliff. Then Rallix's policy can be put into action and we'll really see what extreme "spending cuts" will do to the global economy.

It'll tear it to little shreds, just like it was supposed to all this time. Except instead of steady little bits one at a time like it should have, Keynesian spending has made it all to happen at once.
The crash must happen for the boom to return. There is a price.

 

[Mage246]

And you see no benefit whatsoever in trying to reduce that price or spread it over a long period of time instead of having it happen all at once? You don't see how reckless and foolish your attitude is?

 

[Moose!]

It'll tear it to little shreds, just like it was supposed to all this time. Except instead of steady little bits one at a time like it should have, Keynesian spending has made it all to happen at once.
The crash must happen for the boom to return. There is a price.

Nice to see that you resort to sweeping generalizations instead of looking at what actually happens when government spending increases during times of recession.

He's a libertarian, Mage. Libertarians seem to think themselves immune to the "price" of these things (you said something similar in the past, wish I could find it, as it pretty much describes every libertarian I've ever encountered in a way that was more eloquent than my own. Something about being special little flowers).

Personally, I like to call it Ayn Rand syndrome.

Ooh, maybe John Galt syndrome. I like that better.

 

[Mage246]

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,269789.msg6456091.html#msg6456091

Probably referring to that? Anyway, to me it doesn't matter if I personally will be affected (I'm very likely to be hit that hard by it). If someone else will be, that's enough reason to try to find ways to lessen the impact.

 

[usnavy30]

隐藏: Thoughts of text

Very disappointed to say the least,
this shutdown to last who knows how long has already discouraged and demotivated people. It's very frustrating for me too.

The damn Republican party trying to tie Obamacare delaying to the bill to prevent shutdown failed thrice now and done. If Obamacare wasn't such an issue for them perhaps we could have a possible resolution quicker. But no, the party just had to be so determined to delay Obamacare in a lost cause effort. Likewise the damn Democratic party refusing to negotiate any deal that could prevent this as long as Obamacare was tied to the proposal to shoot it down and Obama would veto it instantly.

"A house divided against it self cannot stand" and that is so true as this house, Washington's White House and House of Representatives, and the Senate cannot stand while at odds with the other branches. In this case though its the Congressmen and House of Rep. both at odds at one another risking this situation now reality to stand firm to their own agendas.

Both political parties are to blame for failure to compromise.

Now furloughs are coming to hit people from all walks of life, losing money needed to substain themselves. Including my own family's line of work so that is just fantastic.

I'm pretty disappointed in the National Gov't not doing their job as elected. Angry bitter resentment runs through the nation now, and I can feel that mood as well.

I would like to see an Administration of the Federal government do it's job well for once. And not cause this disaster now at hand.
But in this case this is the last straw I will take of the government's shenanigans. Fire the whole damn administration already in my opinion, nothing is being done or was done to stop this successfully.

Reactions from the other nations of the world I wouldn't be surprised calling the U.S government a laughing stock now.
And I'm angry at President Obama, his agenda has gone on far enough now with his votings count fluke, no legitimate birth certificate to verify his credibility as a U.S citizen and especially the incidents like Benghazi and NSA scandal. I have had it with this current administration their credibility is in pieces as is already. Obviously the people in the highest position of powers to maintain this country do not take it seriously enough to pull through for us citizens.

These kinds of events cause people to go crazy for one. I can sense the discord this will cause in the country resulting in crime to look out for, people quitting jobs and left frustrated at everything and protests that will be the backlash on the government. How exactly this will affect everyone I don't know everything so it is hard to tell.

Everything just seems so upside down now, life couldn't be more complicated and uncertain currently as is. It feels very wrong that the government lets this happen by having no compromise and waiting to the last minute to get a resolution until too late.

Now October is uncertain what it holds for the future, this is a nightmare.

Ho-hum but there is hope for tomorrow to be a better day and I won't let anyone take that away from me of my determination to move onward.
EDIT: Fine, fixed it to a thoughts of text than a wall of text as to be correct.