Twohanders overpowered?

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Reapy

Sergeant Knight at Arms
2 handers feel OP in death match and team death match, but in battle mode they don't seem as over powering due to their vulnerability to ranged. I think the big mistake 1h/shield users make (as I do this a lot myself) is to think that once we block a hit we may attack. This is not always the case, and sometimes you have to wait out a few hits before you are positioned correctly to retaliate.

At first I thought they should be slower... but the more I play with it the more I'm pretty comfortable with their speed. One thing that might help would be a slightly longer recovery after a missed swing, maybe.
 

Lord Rich

Grandmaster Knight
I dont think most 2H weapons are overpowered but there are some exceptions in my opinion:

Rhodok War Hammer: This thing will get a 1 hit kill most of the time irrelevant of shields or blocks, it also has a fast swing AND knocks opponents down so you can get a killing blow in. I dont actually mind its ability to hit through block but it shouldnt be as fast as it is, theres just no way to resist it except keep out of range and thats not always possible.

Spear: The spear is too fast at the moment, if you miss a single block then your opponent can get multiple hits in afterwards because they can swing before you recover from the stun. Its speed and range already make it hard to block, seems a bit much for one of the basic free weapons.
 

JoG

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&S
Lord Rich said:
Rhodok War Hammer: This thing will get a 1 hit kill most of the time irrelevant of shields or blocks, it also has a fast swing AND knocks opponents down so you can get a killing blow in. I dont actually mind its ability to hit through block but it shouldnt be as fast as it is, theres just no way to resist it except keep out of range and thats not always possible.
But it's short and slow as well.
Any hammers cannot crash blocks made using strong shields. Yesterday we tried to test it. For example, hammer crashes old heater shield easily, but it fails against heater shield (2nd best swadian shield) regardless of the type and power of the blow. Still it can crash 1h and bastard sword blocks without any problems.

Lord Rich said:
Spear: The spear is too fast at the moment, if you miss a single block then your opponent can get multiple hits in afterwards because they can swing before you recover from the stun. Its speed and range already make it hard to block, seems a bit much for one of the basic free weapons.
Spear is OK. You can block with it easily and you can hit somebody a couple of times but often it fails to do any damage to your opponent, especially if you use it at wrong range. As a result, you get killed.

IMHO, 2handers are OK. It's everything about the skill. Some players will pwn me regardless of the weapons we use. But for me "spammer" in 95% of cases means "an easy kill".
 

Swadius 2.0

Grandmaster Knight
I do think that most two handed weapons can swing quite fast, but I don't think their recovery for their next blow can be surpassing or even equated to that of shorter light weapons.
 

Eluqqa

Sergeant Knight
I'm not sure how they should be nerfed, but yes, they are overpowered. If you're at all decent at blocking, or the server is on autoblock, 2h weapons will dominate.
They are my favored weapon, and I use them almost every game, but despite that I would not mind seeing them nerfed.
 

kingofnoobia

Master Knight
M&BWB
  • socks said:
    I searched and, much to my surprise, I didn't find a topic about this. If there is one, please link it and ignore this thread.

    Otherwise;

    2hs
    • can kill horses with a single blow
    Only when the horse is charging straight at you so you get a huge speed bonus. Otherwise you will usually need 3 blows to kill the horse
    • can kill people with a single blow
    Unarmored people, yes. Armored people often require 3 blows, while lancers can still kill them with only 1
    • can break shields with a single blow
    That is only the axes, and they are meant to do that. It's their strong point. If you get someone with 2 max quality shields and you attack him with a 2h sword, you will need about 30 blows to destroy both shields...
    • are very fast
    One handers suffer, if I am correctly, from a speed penalty when wielded with a shield. Put your shield away if you want them to be faster. Other than that, 2handers are irl NOT much slower than 1handers.
    • are extremely easy to use [i.e., noob friendly; me, a week-old noob who plays about an hour a day, got five kills in 2-3 minutes with a two hand just an hour or two ago, having used 2hs very little previously]
    Strongly depends on who you're fighting. New players will die very quickly by 2handers if they can't block, and you often get a lot of easy kills with 2handers. But against a highly skilled player you are usually much better off with a good quality shield and sword if you are not a good blocker yourself. And the blocking isn't really easy, according to many people on the forum here. So yes, you will get a lot of kills with 2handers, but if you can't block with 'em you will also die a lot.
    • are more effective against cavalry than spears are
    I prefer an awlpike over a great axe when fighting lancers.
    • when used in conjunction with a shield can be used very effectively against archers; by holding the shield out until in range of the 2h, and then switching to the 2h, they can be very hard to hit with arrows.
    I prefer a good one hander with shield vs archers.
socks said:
Thoughts?
I don't think they are overpowered, though they are VERY effective if used by a good player. But the only thing people have in mind when talking about 2handers is the axe family, who eat shields like pie. I do agree that THESE could be nerfed a bit, both slightly on damage and on speed, and a small cost increase. But there is no problem at all with the two handed swords, they are definitely not op.

And all that nagging about spammers - these people are the easiest ones to kill. Really. Anyone who says spamming 2handers is op should simply practice blocking a bit.
 

kingofnoobia

Master Knight
M&BWB
iamrawr said:
make manual blocking harder
Seeing as already very few people put up a decent fight right now, and even good players are sometimes beaten quickly, this is about the worst solution I've ever heard. Would make spamming more prevalent and a more valid tactic, would make axes more OP (as they destroy shields quickly) and would make turtling more prevalent. Generally, everyone will play either VERY offensively or VERY defensively methinks. And it would narrow down most fights to attack-block chains if people stop using 2handers.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
kingofnoobia said:
iamrawr said:
make manual blocking harder
Seeing as already very few people put up a decent fight right now, and even good players are sometimes beaten quickly, this is about the worst solution I've ever heard. Would make spamming more prevalent and a more valid tactic, would make axes more OP (as they destroy shields quickly) and would make turtling more prevalent. Generally, everyone will play either VERY offensively or VERY defensively methinks. And it would narrow down most fights to attack-block chains if people stop using 2handers.

Actually, it is a bit too easy to do well with a two-hander.  I remember the good-old-days (:lol:) when they were only effective in the hands of a good player; that was when recovery times weren't so awfully slow and shields were better.  Personally, I think the more powerful weapons should have a harder learning curve.  Greater difficulty, greater benefits.  Weapon inertia has brought them down closer to the level of one-handers again by restricting feinting, but several of the swords and axes are still a bit too fast.  I don't think an across-the-board speed nerf would be a good idea.  Just slightly slow down the axes, B swords, and perhaps the great bardiche.

I don't understand why people think the glaive is so fast.  It's actually quite slow and it's one of the easiest weapons to block.
 

iamrawr

Sergeant
kingofnoobia said:
iamrawr said:
make manual blocking harder
Seeing as already very few people put up a decent fight right now, and even good players are sometimes beaten quickly, this is about the worst solution I've ever heard. Would make spamming more prevalent and a more valid tactic, would make axes more OP (as they destroy shields quickly) and would make turtling more prevalent. Generally, everyone will play either VERY offensively or VERY defensively methinks. And it would narrow down most fights to attack-block chains if people stop using 2handers.

In your statement, you are assuming too much. 2handed Spammers aren't a threat, even if you have to hit them four to six times because developers increased armor and decreased damage. Good old days that scipio mention were actually very balanced (more balanced than now) and certainly took more skills than now (around .613 I think, I am not too sure.).

Camping will always be the best option in certain maps like village. You cannot change that unless you change the map. Anyway, I believe two handers aren't overpowered, but other weapons are certainly underpowered.
 

socks

Master Knight
WB
People who are bad at manual blocking, such as myself, get extremely screwed over by twohanders; since we're forced to use a shield, we can't swing fast enough and the 2h just breaks the shield before we can even touch them. Then, since again I'm bad at manual blocking, I'm basically screwed. I don't know. The list I created wasn't a list of things that I think should be eliminated; it was a list of things that I can see the 2hs have going for them.

@whoever said 2hs kill with a single blow only for basic clothing; for the most part, from what I can see, people starting a new game focus on better weapons and shields than on armor, which means that when you die from a single 2h blow your are down a lot of money and can't afford a better tier of armor. Also, the 'I prefer' comments aren't very helpful.

Realistically speaking, if someone tried to do a common strategy of twohander dehorsing [step to the side and hit the horse's chest with the 2h as it charges at full gallop towards you, which is the most common cavalry tactic], their weapon would probably be ripped out of their hands and their arms might be broken. The horse might still die, but it'd be damned hard to defend yourself. It's hard to even get close to twohanders on horseback because if you go to the side at a slower pace, they can just kill you using the 2h's superior reach when you swing your weapon back.



 

Kevlar

Baron
M&BWBWF&SNW
If 2h's had speed reduced they would be fine, they are not so much of a problem as stated earlier 1v1 since you just have to block and get inside and hit them while they can't do much.
 

docbates7

Recruit
nothing like that post 2h ganked meat blender rage....i've been there MANY times.

i would agree that the 2hers need a speed reduction, or at least a delay after being blocked.  right now they are too fast but teh damage output is good
 

iamrawr

Sergeant
Kevlar said:
If 2h's had speed reduced they would be fine, they are not so much of a problem as stated earlier 1v1 since you just have to block and get inside and hit them while they can't do much.

you can't really do that as a dehorsed cavalry or archer as they walk backwards faster than you.
 
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