Urlik said:rapier17 said:Any old fool can pick up two weapons and swing them about, but without a bit of weapons training or some natural 'skill'/luck, you're more likely to do a mischief to yourself rather than your opponent, or throw yourself off balance/trip yourself, not to mention peoples natural tendancy to focus upon one hand rather than both.
that is true of using a single weapon.
it never grows old watching someone pick up a sword, swinging it around a bit then trying to do a fancy figure 8 "web of death" and smacking it straight into their nuts.
Hehe yes, you do quite a bit of a swing on weapons, don't you? At least they found that out soon enough Fortunately we managed to prevent anyone from swinging weapons around foolishly - its not worth the insurance gamble. Although it is tough to prevent friends picking up your weapons when they're in your house.
the argument seems to be that many believe there is no place in M&B for the use of offhand weapons yet time and again the very situations when it is accepted that it would be appropriate keep cropping up.
everybody who plays M&B has been ambushed by bandits when entering a village or town more than once and the more they play, the more it happens.
why not have sword and dagger as an option for defending yourself against this small number of opponents attacking from different directions in a civilian setting?
if you play an archer then your main weapon is your bow.
why not have sword and dagger as your back up option for when the party gets a bit too intimate?
I've been thinking 'pon this point, and it is one that has merit, both for RL & in-game. The survival instinct of grabbing whatever you can to defend yourself with can't really be replicated in-game, although, I do recall a mechanic from a Half-Life mod I once played. Essentially the mod was a dual-wielding John Woo esque mod, but it had a nifty little thing where if you were out of ammo or reloading, you could hit a 'panic button' and it brought up two tiny pistols. Perhaps if there was a 'panic button' in M&B:WB, the avatar could pull a dagger from their belt in their off-hand if it was empty. If dynamic blocking with shields were in, then you could keep the current 'dagger rules', no blocking except chamber blocks, and still have something with which to attack with whilst defending with the sword. Just a thought I had, probably a rubbish one, but hey.
rapier17 said:I'd much rather have dynamic shield blocking (like manual blocking but obviously with your shield) and steel bucklers included, as well as a shield bash in Native.
if you have read as much of this thread as you claim, you would know that I suggested that the functionality for offhand weapons can be put in the game (so that modders can then add them in a realistic and balanced way) by adding in full functionality for the shield.
have blocking possible with both the shield and sword and have a shield bash that isn't just the kick with a different animation so it is possible to block or attack with whatever is in either hand.
this would enhance the fight dynamics of native and allow those who want to use a dagger or short sword as an offhand weapon do so through mods without anyone who plays native ever having to see someone using a ballock knife or seax in the offhand.
Just one moment. Let me quote me here, agreeing with you on your method for DWing (and actually being positively for it, which I am...and am not );
rapier17 said:Urlik said:as shown by photographic evidence in NN's post earlier, you can't stab a dagger through an akaton/padded jack.
to deal with padded armour, you need to slash/cut it which is easier with a standard grip (unless you want to get ridiculously close to your opponent)
for implimenting dual wielding, I would reasign the buttons so that the Q key was the default for right hand block and E was the default for left hand block, then have the mouse buttons for left and right attack, left for right hand attack and right for left hand attack as the index finger is dominant and should be used for the main attack.
this would also add the possibility to block with both weapons as well as attack with both.
if the player was using a sword and shield, the right mouse button would be a shield bash
if no weapon was in the left hand then the right button could be used for the kick or maybe a left handed punch
(I know punching would do little to an armoured opponent, but you can already take out armoured opponents in M&B with punches, so it isn't including something that isn't already in the game, even though it is not as realistic as it could be)
I quite like this idea, instead of an easy (read: boring) button mashing dual wield system (see the Berserker class in PiratesVsVikingsVsKnights II) it'd require decent amounts of co-ordination and concentration.
I'm slowly turning towards a potential inclusion of dual wielding, maybe for SP, but not sure about having it in MP. It's a tricky one to balance - too slow/too low damage and no-one will use it, too fast/too high damage and everyone will. Imagine what it'd be like with the current spin-spam way most people fight (including me - sucks when to be competitive you're forced to be gamey).
As for activating the DW, why not have a similar system as we currently do with shields? Roll the mousewheel, your character puts away the shield and draws their second sword or dagger, or axe or whatever. Roll it again they put away the second weapon. Roll it once more they pull out the shield (obviously depending on whether you have a shield/second weapon in your slots).
As for this...
The 2 attacks should be the psycho shower stab (overhead guard to block)... ...the overhead should have a slight longer reach than the thrust.
...what? Errr...right. Ever tried to use a high stab (the high guard was known as prima in Italian rapier fencing) in a bout? It...isn't that effective, unless you're using your own swords guard to push their blade high off target and dropping your own point into their face. Even then its really easy to counter/miss. It's also slower than a standard thrust as its a larger movement and lacks the power that the pelvis gives to a regular thrust/lunge. So far as reach goes, it ends up being more or less the same as a standard thrust.
EDIT: I didn't mention the huge amount of target you open up by lifting your arm high, essentially your rib cage on one side, your gut and also your thigh. It's a do or die guard if you're determined to use it, as you'd have to be really, really fast, both with reactions and how quickly you move the sword & your body to prevent your leg being hamstrung, and when you're concentrating on performing that high attack, its very easy to be distracted from protecting your lower body.
And to quote myself talking about rapiers & my agreement with other posters at the time that it should be available as a modding source;
rapier17 said:Giacomo de Grassi...his treatise on rapier fencing is fantastic if you prefer cutting to thrusting, or to combine with the work of a later maestro' who taught thrusting (i.e. Rudulfo Capo Ferro).
Anyway, as has been said, dual-wielding should be limited to a civilian context, but I'd still like to see the mechanic available for modders - I'd love to see a Renaissance mod, where you could dual-wield rapiers & daggers/cloaks/bucklers/candlesticks/chairs in the streets/taverns/...anywhere else you might want to do it... but the chances of it happening I think are very slim.
So far as if a control system were implemented for the mechanic, I think where Urlik is coming from is a good basis for it, each weapon controlled by a different button, with a button to hold down to use the weapons for parries.
Now beyond its use for a C15/16 Renaissance mod, or a LoTR mod, or any other fantasy/sci-fi mod, I can't see a use for dual-wielding in M&B. If there was a heavy civilian context involved (i.e. more random attacks in the streets, gang-fights in towns, duels with Lords) then it could be argued that it should be in the game in Native, but even then I don't think it should be without the correct setting (i.e. Renaissance...hmmm particular pattern emerging here).
I do believe having the mechanic available for modifications would be a boon to the modders, without it ruining peoples Native SP games/MP. Thats a good approach in my opinion. If you want it, it can be used in a mod, if you don't, then don't use it in a mod. Or if its in a mod you want to play and you don't want to use it...just don't use dual-wield. And keep it player orientated, not for mobs.
There! My rambling reply.
Admittedly I was thinking of Renaissance mods at the time, but I am fully behind the mechanic being available to modders, with dynamic shield use implemented in to Native. I'm just not 100% for it in Native.
There were a few other posts I made agreeing with you on your idea for implementing DWing, as well as general discussion of wielding two weapons RL, but I thought the above two would do.
So in essence...we do agree Urlik