Two weapon fightin? (dual wielding)

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Tsukana

Sergeant
And 1/4th on topic bull****!

That's 100% Bull****. A bull**** composite, if you will. A perfect blending of on topic and off topic.
 

rapier17

Baron
Yes, well, can you blame us for going off-topic? It's been discussed to death so many times that I think the only reason the mods leave it here is to prevent dual-wielding threads being opened in its place. Imagine the horror of having threads sprouting up every week on the same topic & following the same cycle again and again and again. At least with this thread its contained in a way.
 

Amman d Stazia

Master Knight
and every so often something happens....

Hey, moddable dual wielding?

Well, how about in all seriousness someone mods in a CLOAK instead of a shield?  That's a whole lot more realistic for a C.16/C.17 mod, that people use their cloaks as an armguard / soft foil.

I can't remember the bloke's name anymore (tsukana? help?) but he wrote a manual and in order, the best combinations were:
sword/shield
sword/buckler
sword/cloak
sword/dagger
sword/sword
 

tostig

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&B
Silver, an C16th Englishman, wrote down his opinions on various weapons, which may be what you're thinking. He pretty much had the 'Welch Hook', a kind of short-ish pole-arm, as the king of weapons.

Then again he was a massive xenophobic troll. Lots of the rapier stuff deals with a rapier using a buckler, cloak, dagger (like a main-gauche) or second rapier in the off hand. This makes sense when fighting against a weapon which almost exclusively makes thrusting attacks. However, of those only a buckler seems to make sense against a weapon which is more functionally effective at cutting, such as an arming sword or a messer.

Or, I've been drinking for about eleven hours steady, and rapier isn't my area of speciality. Sydney Anglo's 'Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe' gives a damn fine overview of it all.
 

rapier17

Baron
In my experience* a buckler is far better than a shield against a rapier wielding opponent - a steel buckler is light, tough & can be carried conveniently on the belt. A shield is larger, bulkier, heavier & as tough. The buckler is also the better for deflection, generally, as it can be used as an extension of the fist in terms of surface area. It's also a wonderfully potent weapon in its own right. One of my favourite movements involves a square buckler - we were taught, but never actually used it, a manouver where you trap the opponents blade with your own, step inside their guard and WHAM! the corner of a square buckler into the throat. The other variation is just smashing them round the head with the buckler. There was also a version for planting the corner of the buckler behind your opponents knee cap...



...I love bucklers.

*I've obviously never been in a 'real' duel situation, I've never drawn blood with a rapier (although I've had my own drawn), so my experience amounts to the study of the use of the weapon rather than actual application of it. In a life-death situation the shield might be the better option but I'd still plumb for the versatile buckler.
 

Tsukana

Sergeant
I'm sorry, I couldn't help but imagine a man with a rapier pinned against a wall, flailing wildly, by a man with a board shield, who is laughing maniacally as he draws a short blade.

"Better" is situational!
 

rapier17

Baron
Ah that ones easy - smother him. If you grapple him, crushing his shield to his body then that massive lump of wood is going to hinder him greatly, especially if he's in the act of drawing a short sword - most likely his sword arm will be trapped beneath the shield and he'll be unarmed. If you can then run him backwards fast enough he'll eventually trip & voila! Buckler to the face!
 

Tsukana

Sergeant
If he's drawing something like, say, a dagger, you're only putting yourself in MORE danger by grappling him.

Especially if you're pinned to a wall.
 

rapier17

Baron
But you're assuming I'm doing nothing whilst grappeling - the rim of that steel buckler must hurt rather a lot when it's being smashed into your face/head. If you're going to say he's wearing a helmet then pfffft. You wouldn't take a rapier into a situation where your opponent is bedecked in armour. Also have you ever tried drawing a weapon whilst someone is rushing you backwards? It's one of the preferred means I had of taking down opponents at re-enactment - I had a reputation for being a crazy saex wielder in that I would literally jump on and smother opponents whilst ramming my saex into them.
 

tostig

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&B
Tsukana said:
If he's drawing something like, say, a dagger, you're only putting yourself in MORE danger by grappling him.

Especially if you're pinned to a wall.

Because the best knife defence is doing nothing while a man stabs you. Especially if you're pinned to a wall and can't run away.

No wait, it's to grapple and try and control the weapon. Silly me.
:roll:
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Tostig said:
Because the best knife defence is doing nothing while a man stabs you. Especially if you're pinned to a wall and can't run away.

No wait, it's to grapple and try and control the weapon. Silly me.
:roll:
Well, it's kindof hard to defend yourself when your sword hand is pinned across your body (remember, you were pinned while drawing). That leaves you with one hand free to contend with his shield, saex, and legs.
 

tostig

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&B
MadocComadrin said:
Well, it's kindof hard to defend yourself when your sword hand is pinned across your body (remember, you were pinned while drawing). That leaves you with one hand free to contend with his shield, saex, and legs.
Step One: Let go of sword. Step Two: Let go of anything in your off hand. Step Three ???? Step Four: Profit.

Srsly. You only have to look at documentary evidence, let alone modern interpretations, to see people going '****eth this ****e, forget the longswords, I'm going to throw you on the ground and then **** you up by stamping on your face.'

Trufax.
 

MadocComadrin

Water-Borne Annelid
Count
M&BWBWF&S
Listen, his arm is pinned across his body. It doesn't matter if he lets go of the sword, he won't be able to move his arm, hence why it's pinned.
 

rapier17

Baron
...why would you allow your sword arm to be pinned across your body? Why would you have the blade in 'quatre', across your body, when you'd be better off having it in 'seconde', out wide? You only put your blade in quatre for a parry or in preperation for an attack. As a left hander I wouldn't be that stupid as 'seconde' or 'terze' are far more suitable as they place the blade on the left side of my body allowing me to attack a right handed assailants sword arm with ease, shield or no. I could also switch to 'prima' with the sword high which could bluff the shield user into covering his head in protection from the rapiers tip and promptly use the fact that he's blinded to my advantage. Also, being a leftie, I'd have a dagger hung on my left hip, so even if I did drop my sword I'd still have a dagger as a close range back up which I can more easily slip around his shields rim than a right handed person can.

I love being left handed.
 
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