Two weapon fightin? (dual wielding)

[MadocComadrin]

I was using the average or must common for two countries.

The most common form of lamination is the honsanmai, which is the exact opposite of what you said.

Second, you clearly know nothing about steels! Hard-carbon yields a little then fractures violently. Medium is less sudden aka violent and more giving. Soft carbon steel is the most giving and breaks the "cleanest" of the three, excluding pure iron. Unless you have a degree in Material Engineering sub-discipline of Mechanical Engineering, like me, just shut up!

I know nothing? You just repeated what I said and proved my point. Why would you make the core of a sword out of something that violently fractures violently [sic, just for effect ] under stress or impulse and that has greater rigidity so that it transfers vibrations back into the hand? Why would you make the edge out of something that is more malleable and prone to dulling? I really don't give a crap about your degree, since you're applying that knowledge incorrectly. Also, I have quite a few years of chemistry and physics under my belt; do stop being so condescending or your stay here will be short and humiliating.

Thirdly, there are always exceptions to any given pattern and always will be. To include them is a waste of time in that instance and didn't apply whatsoever to the guys comment. Congrats, you brought up exceptions that anyone who knows anything about Japanese swords (btw, I am very familiar with the above exceptions) would know.

Apparently you aren't that familiar, since you inverted the types of steel used in the lamination.

And one more thing, try damaging a high-strength (brittle) alloy next-time you are in a workshop. Preferably with your hands or something remotely accurate. It isn't that easy. Now the tool you use would probably be tungsten-carbide drill bit. Which is very significantly harder than anything that people could produce in that time period. It would be equivalent to taking a revolver back to the Medieval Period. So far beyond their scope of capabilities it is a retarded comparison.

Yes, because a drill is a perfect test of how a piece of hard metal acts under bending, tensile, compressive, or shearing forces or high impulse. 

 

[Urist]

Having a degree doesn't protect one from being horribly wrong. Soft core/back, hard outside/blade makes sense, not the other way around.

 

[Sheriff-murder]

Unless you have a degree in Material Engineering sub-discipline of Mechanical Engineering, like me, just shut up!

You sure like bringing that up a lot don't you?

 

[rapier17]

Hullo chaps! Nice to see you dropping by!

 

[pompapah]

When I think of holding a shield, I see that as a potential weapon

 

[tostig]

When I think of holding a scabbard, I see that as a potential weapon.
When I think of holding a pencil, I see that as a potential weapon.
When I think of a weapon, I see that as a potential weapon.

 

[MadocComadrin]

When I whip my hair back and forth, I see that as a potential weapon.

 

[Coy]

When I whip my hair back and forth, I see that as a potential weapon.

 

[MadocComadrin]

Great, that hypnotic pic just wasted 5 minutes of my life. 

 

[rapier17]

Actually I was almost thrown out of a metal club once because of my hair.

During one of my vigorous bouts of headbanging, to Machinehead's Halo, some stupid girl who blatantly wasn't there for metal, seems she & her friends had thought it a 'fun' idea to go to a freak metal night, stood too close to a 5'10" tall male with hair that reaches down to past his shoulder blades. As I swung my hair about, banging my head to & fro to the music, that rather fast bit I think it was, she appears to have managed to cop a load of sweaty hair in her eye socket. She then complained to a bouncer that I'd attacked her and 'pparently, we only have my drunken friends testimony & you know what drunken friends can be like relating a tale to you, when she pointed me out I was still waving my hair around and the bouncer laughed at her.

So yes! Hair -can- be a weapon!

Tragically I've never had the opportunity to dual wield my hair. If I grew my beard long enough so it swirled around like my hair...would that count as dual wielding?

 

[Sushiman70]

Damn you, that's far too long to sig.

 

[GenUni]

Aside from the technical knowledge, your historical knowledge is lacking. Most forms of lamination including the honsanmai (the most common form of lamination) used a soft steel core, and intermediate-hardness steel on the sides, and hard steel for the edge. There are some exceptions: the maru, the gomai, and the wariha tetsu. The first (maru) is unlaminated hard steel: cheap and easy to make. The gomai is similar to what you said, as it uses a thin center of hard steel wrapped in soft steel as its core with a final layer of hard-steel wrapping around for the edge. Finally, the wariha tetsu uses a bulk of intermediate steel with a diamond-shaped part of hard steel for the edge.

Point of random might be interest:  A lot of Anglo-saxon knives and other blades were similarly softer iron/steel/iron alloys with forge-welded on harder edge.  Then you get into pattern welding, but I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to insist that it was the secret of folding steel that made Japanese swords better  Unless that was in the 200+ pages I ignore.

 

[nikosierra125]

It has been mentioned about 5 times i think. this is one of those threads no one should read, just skip to the end and make a statement

seems even people who were here from the start have forgotten what they posted and just posted it again.

 

[Rynuusuke]

I was using the average or must common for two countries.

The most common form of lamination is the honsanmai, which is the exact opposite of what you said.

Second, you clearly know nothing about steels! Hard-carbon yields a little then fractures violently. Medium is less sudden aka violent and more giving. Soft carbon steel is the most giving and breaks the "cleanest" of the three, excluding pure iron. Unless you have a degree in Material Engineering sub-discipline of Mechanical Engineering, like me, just shut up!

I know nothing? You just repeated what I said and proved my point. Why would you make the core of a sword out of something that violently fractures violently [sic, just for effect ] under stress or impulse and that has greater rigidity so that it transfers vibrations back into the hand? Why would you make the edge out of something that is more malleable and prone to dulling? I really don't give a crap about your degree, since you're applying that knowledge incorrectly. Also, I have quite a few years of chemistry and physics under my belt; do stop being so condescending or your stay here will be short and humiliating.

Thirdly, there are always exceptions to any given pattern and always will be. To include them is a waste of time in that instance and didn't apply whatsoever to the guys comment. Congrats, you brought up exceptions that anyone who knows anything about Japanese swords (btw, I am very familiar with the above exceptions) would know.

Apparently you aren't that familiar, since you inverted the types of steel used in the lamination.

And one more thing, try damaging a high-strength (brittle) alloy next-time you are in a workshop. Preferably with your hands or something remotely accurate. It isn't that easy. Now the tool you use would probably be tungsten-carbide drill bit. Which is very significantly harder than anything that people could produce in that time period. It would be equivalent to taking a revolver back to the Medieval Period. So far beyond their scope of capabilities it is a retarded comparison.

Yes, because a drill is a perfect test of how a piece of hard metal acts under bending, tensile, compressive, or shearing forces or high impulse. 

1. Take a look at how the metal lamination is done then how it cools. If you even have the background run the calculations for the metal cooling rates. The cooling rates will effect grain development and thus the hardness. There are more ways than just adding carbon to increase the hardness.

After the blade is finished being form, in the cooling (tempering) stage of the process the water will cool the outermost layers the fastest. The outer layers will crystallize larger granules (small metallic crystals) in larger sheets than will the metal at the middle. The larger those crystals the more brittle the metal becomes. Which is entirely separate from the carbon content. I shouldn't have assumed you even knew/understood that.

Depending on your tempering medium, the rate and size of the crystals varies. The most common for the time would be air, water and brine (salt-water). Salt water is still used today, has the fastest and most drastic rate. Water is the most common and has relatively mild effects compared to brine. Air is the easiest to use, it means leave it out to cool. Air has the lowest effects on cooling and crystallization. So, without going into all the different variations (ie. moving, static, chilled, heated, etc), water is the one used in the discussed case. Which would leave a less-crystallized interior and more crystallized edge and side layers. Therefore, the rather incorrect and technically wrong diagram you are referring to (wikipedia). Not surprising, since there is absolutely no explanation on the page for the actual effects of the process on the metal itself.

If you really want more detailed and accurate information on Japanese or any other sword go to the Royal Armory Museum at Leeds, UK. Which has an example of almost every sword ever made and is the only location that the world's largest armory of antique weapons (Tower of London) displays.

2. The drill bit was a good approximation for a garage-junkie to understand the difference between a high-strength and brittle steel against a more ductile one. Well, I guessed I learned trying to explain or help you is a waste of time and effort. One last thing, try reading this, might help you grasp some of the concept of steels and their properties.

http://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.11/www/modules/ss.pdf

Have a great day!

PS. I am not going to waste any more of my valuable time...Dealing with you is very far below my paygrade.

Aside from the technical knowledge, your historical knowledge is lacking. Most forms of lamination including the honsanmai (the most common form of lamination) used a soft steel core, and intermediate-hardness steel on the sides, and hard steel for the edge. There are some exceptions: the maru, the gomai, and the wariha tetsu. The first (maru) is unlaminated hard steel: cheap and easy to make. The gomai is similar to what you said, as it uses a thin center of hard steel wrapped in soft steel as its core with a final layer of hard-steel wrapping around for the edge. Finally, the wariha tetsu uses a bulk of intermediate steel with a diamond-shaped part of hard steel for the edge.

Point of random might be interest:  A lot of Anglo-saxon knives and other blades were similarly softer iron/steel/iron alloys with forge-welded on harder edge.  Then you get into pattern welding, but I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to insist that it was the secret of folding steel that made Japanese swords better  Unless that was in the 200+ pages I ignore.

Welding works if you want a quick fix. However, you lose a lot of the strength of an actually forged blade. Welds are strong as long as and only if the force is going through the joint. As the angle of the force applied increses (goes towards perpendicular or across) the strength drops extremely rapidly (depending on the type of joint it can be X^2 or higher).

 

[Dryvus]

PS. I am not going to waste any more of my valuable time...Dealing with you is very far below my paygrade.

So how much are you getting paid to talk to the other people?

 

[Rynuusuke]

PS. I am not going to waste any more of my valuable time...Dealing with you is very far below my paygrade.

So how much are you getting paid to talk to the other people?

That is a good...Here I get paid nothing. Generally, I am paid to solve problems and/or fix existing problems with products.

 

[Tsukana]

I have six doctorates.

I get paid to tell people what they're thinking.

Obi Wan Kenobi was my mentor.

Damn I've got some hot credentials.

 

[nikosierra125]

 

[Papa Lazarou]

This devolved pretty quickly. In fact I'd say the rate was X^2 or even higher.

 

[nikosierra125]

I believe this video solves our debates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9-faa56l-s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

At around 3:30 you can clearly see him switching from single to dual wielding his weapons, and there is no arguing its increased efficiency in dealing pain. I rest my case your honourable members of Taleworlds .