Two weapon fightin? (dual wielding)

[AWdeV]

Holy **** stop being such a whiny little crybaby and go whine about your imaginary fat nerds elsewhere. You are wrong which obviously means everybody else is a fat nerd waaahh waah waaah. Piss off already.

****. What M said was kinda funny but do you reaaally think nothing remotely similar has been said in aforementioned 300 pages?

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Oh.

Well, I assume him making some crazy epic sounding technique I can't even pronounce is just for training purposes and he never actually used it, he just created and perfected techniques pertaining to the style. You're the fat nerd here, you should be right when it comes to these things, it pains me to have to correct you about dead Japanse duelists' combat techniques over the internet. I feel like I need to be eating some cheetoes or something. It totally makes your point of it "not being a viable fighting style" when the guy was well known and renown for his "(二天一, "two heavens as one") or nitōichi (二刀一, "two swords as one")" style, a dual wielding style he "perfected". Your "grandmaster knight" title and phallic symbol underneath your name does not scare me, sir.

Just being renowned for being a duelist and known for such a style doesn't mean that it was a viable fighting style. There are very many ritualized fighting techniques around the world, there are grandmasters of these sports too, and they are well know. But we wouldn't call these viable styles of fighting when put in a situation where practitioners are fighting for their lives.


I could be a very renowned and skilled halberdier, it doesn't mean every system I come up with is necessarily going to serve in live combat. There are many reasons why a style can become popular, and these reasons don't necessarily have to do with how effective they really are in live combat. The ninja got revived and mythologized during the 90s beyond all reasonableness for example. What's more telling about Musashi's two sword techniques was the fact that none of his students or later followers ever followed in his footsteps in this regard. Moreover it seems it only had a reawakening because of the video game generation trying to rationalize dual wielding, or to be more blunt, it has gained a lot of popularity among those that don't seem to have any experience in live combat of this sort.

Musashi created and perfected a two-sword kenjutsu technique called niten'ichi (二天一, "two heavens as one") or nitōichi (二刀一, "two swords as one") or "Ni-Ten Ichi Ryu" (A Kongen Buddhist Sutra refers to the two heavens as the two guardians of Buddha). In this technique, the swordsman uses both a large sword, and a "companion sword" at the same time, such as a katana with a wakizashi.

Well yeah, except a wakizashi can't be shoved into any understandable connotations of "long sword".

After a long night of debating with nerds on the internet about

stupid **** no one cares about

From my perspective, you seem to care about this more than any of the people who has posted in this thread. You seem to have quite a bit of emotional investment in this topic to the point that you come out in a rage when confronted with counter views presented in a non-aggressive civil manner. I personally think it's unhealthy for someone to ignore these things about themselves, if we are nerds, then it's quite likely that you are too. Just take a look at what you're doing, you're arguing with people about the viability of a certain school of swordsmanship on the suggestions board of a niche indie computer game forum.

 

[Rhade]

Trying hard

I just showed up and saw a 300+ page thread on some very srs bsns and decided to take part for a minute.

I actually busted out the "nerd" thing because of the whole "Night Ninja" name along with all the "Grandmaster Knights" hanging out in this thread, I mean, come on.

Furthermore, it is just a minor section in a niche indie video game message board, so me saying that some ancient duelist may or may not have used dual wielding efficiently in the past becoming OMG SUCH SUPER SERIAL BUSINESS BECAUSE NO HE DIDN'T, HE JUST ADVOCATED IT AS A STYLE AND NEVER USED IT IN LIVE COMBAT, TRUST ME I AM AN EXPERT is pretty ridiculous. Even if you feel you're right, the smugness of posters when they disagree, I can't help but respond a bit aggressively and thoroughly attempting to embarrass them for their poor logic and reasoning themselves.

Holy **** stop being such a whiny little crybaby and go whine about your imaginary fat nerds elsewhere. You are wrong which obviously means everybody else is a fat nerd waaahh waah waaah. Piss off already.

****. What M said was kinda funny but do you reaaally think nothing remotely similar has been said in aforementioned 300 pages?

Why you so mad bro?

You seem a bit bitter.

 

[AWdeV]

Pfah, I'm not. And if I were, you can rest assured it's not because of your petty idiocy.

Seriously. It's pathetic. You come in the thread, spout off the standard bull**** and then suddenly everybody is a big mean fat nerd and they're all out to get you. :c

 

[Rhade]

Pfah, I'm not. And if I were, you can rest assured it's not because of your petty idiocy.

Seriously. It's pathetic. You come in the thread, spout off the standard bull**** and then suddenly everybody is a big mean fat nerd and they're all out to get you. :c

I was actually joking about the nerd thing, it was more of a funny thing but now you're just kind of proving it to be true in your case.

Relax, bro, it's going to be alright.

 

[Dryvus]

oh noes we be nerds

 

[AWdeV]

Oh I know I'm a fat nerd. Known it for years. I wasn't the one arguing about dual wielding though and Ni Ni is asian so he's exempt from being fat. 

 

[bajatmerc]

No thanks, two hand spamming is already bad enough.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Pretty sure playing Warband makes you a nerd automatically, let alone posting on the forum. So I guess being a martial artist makes you even more of a nerd?

 

[Caba`drin]

That at least promotes you to a Lvl40 "Uber" Nerd. I think...let me go get my stat sheets and dice...

 

[Night Ninja]

Depends on the reasons, I'd think. Doing a martial art out of pure interest is probably pretty nerdy, doing it because of testosterone poisoning is being a ****wit macho meathead.

Papa, what martial art is it that you do again? I seem to recall it was judo or something along those lines.

 

[Rhade]

Pretty sure playing Warband makes you a nerd automatically, let alone posting on the forum. So I guess being a martial artist makes you even more of a nerd?

Hard****ingcore, bro.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Furthermore, it is just a minor section in a niche indie video game message board, so me saying that some ancient duelist may or may not have used dual wielding efficiently in the past becoming OMG SUCH SUPER SERIAL BUSINESS BECAUSE NO HE DIDN'T, HE JUST ADVOCATED IT AS A STYLE AND NEVER USED IT IN LIVE COMBAT, TRUST ME I AM AN EXPERT is pretty ridiculous. Even if you feel you're right, the smugness of posters when they disagree, I can't help but respond a bit aggressively and thoroughly attempting to embarrass them for their poor logic and reasoning themselves.

I'm not putting weight on the claim that he didn't use it in battle on my authority, I'm putting the weight of it on you. The standard procedure to arguing something is to back it up with a source when you're claiming something about the real world. I would like to point out that you haven't given a source about the claim that he ever used it in battle. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take anything I claimed about the world seriously unless you have prior experience with it or I gave you a credible source to that claim, so why would you expect me to take you seriously when you claim things about the world? You could ask me to believe on the basis of your authority, but considering your abilities of arguing something seems to consist of yelling really loud and your rhetoric limited to two very basic ad hominems, I'd pass, thank you.
Moreover, in the exchange between you and me, not only do I feel right, I am actually right concerning what we've talked about. I'm not contesting Musashi had written about fighting with two weapons, I'm saying it was never used in a battle. Further, I'm saying he never meant to use it in battle given that I've not yet heard of any of his students or followers actually use it in battle either. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm right given that if it were a good system, and a system designed for live combat, everyone after him would have adopted this way of fighting. And to go even further, even for a person who misunderstands the difference between a katana and a wakazashi, I'm pretty sure he can point out the Japanese didn't have divisions of dual wielders running around.

 

[Deserath]

Is there no hope of being Medieval Rambo with two Repeater crossbows in each hand and a giant single shot on my back? And **** it we'll throw in a Giant Axe.

 

[MadocComadrin]

Trying hard

Rhade's classic line when put on his back foot--almost as bad as Godfrey's ramblings

While Musashi did create an art of sword fighting that used two swords; in a European setting, any potential duel-wielding would be limited to more of a dueling stage than the battlefield.

 

[Baguette Eater]

Yeah how the **** did you ended talking about that guy while going on a discussion a bout a sort of realistic, European centred, video game 

 

[Rhade]

Furthermore, it is just a minor section in a niche indie video game message board, so me saying that some ancient duelist may or may not have used dual wielding efficiently in the past becoming OMG SUCH SUPER SERIAL BUSINESS BECAUSE NO HE DIDN'T, HE JUST ADVOCATED IT AS A STYLE AND NEVER USED IT IN LIVE COMBAT, TRUST ME I AM AN EXPERT is pretty ridiculous. Even if you feel you're right, the smugness of posters when they disagree, I can't help but respond a bit aggressively and thoroughly attempting to embarrass them for their poor logic and reasoning themselves.

I'm not putting weight on the claim that he didn't use it in battle on my authority, I'm putting the weight of it on you. The standard procedure to arguing something is to back it up with a source when you're claiming something about the real world. I would like to point out that you haven't given a source about the claim that he ever used it in battle. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take anything I claimed about the world seriously unless you have prior experience with it or I gave you a credible source to that claim, so why would you expect me to take you seriously when you claim things about the world? You could ask me to believe on the basis of your authority, but considering your abilities of arguing something seems to consist of yelling really loud and your rhetoric limited to two very basic ad hominems, I'd pass, thank you.
Moreover, in the exchange between you and me, not only do I feel right, I am actually right concerning what we've talked about. I'm not contesting Musashi had written about fighting with two weapons, I'm saying it was never used in a battle. Further, I'm saying he never meant to use it in battle given that I've not yet heard of any of his students or followers actually use it in battle either. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm right given that if it were a good system, and a system designed for live combat, everyone after him would have adopted this way of fighting. And to go even further, even for a person who misunderstands the difference between a katana and a wakazashi, I'm pretty sure he can point out the Japanese didn't have divisions of dual wielders running around.

I'm still waiting for you to give me a source.

What you're struggling to get at is called "burden of proof," and it lies with those trying to prove a point.

It says in The Book of the Five Rings that he has perfected a style dedicated to the use of dual wielding two swords at the same time.

It's another argument entirely talking about why the style wasn't used after he used it, and it's just as much of a reach if not more of a reach than saying that because he perfected a style, he would obviously intend to use it in combat. One of Musashi's main points in his writings was not to waste movements or to do anything other than the most practical, straight approach I'd say that it's extremely in line and in keeping with his writings to use the style he perfected, it actually goes wholly against what he wrote for him to not to take the direct and practical route and apply what he's trained for, why would he train in something superflous that is not usable?

Much more concrete evidence than the weak subjective opinions you offer.

@Madoc

Put on my back foot? Are you ****ing kidding me? I've yet to be "put on my back foot", rather I'm putting my palm to my face. I just didn't feel like quoting the entire wall of text he wrote. Get the **** out of here.

 

[Night Ninja]

It's bloody difficult to prove a negative. The man's legendary status doesn't exactly help, there's so much **** about him that it's a wonder anything coherent can be extracted.

Also, 'perfecting' a style? Really? That's quite a claim to make, considering how many other dual-wielding styles there are around the world. Evidently, the people who practised European rapier and sidesword, Filipino sword and dagger, and a whole host of other dual-weapon styles couldn't tell a turd apart from a chocolate bar.

Musashi's emphasis on pragmatism and economy of motion isn't unique to him either. Off the top of my head, Liechtenauer emphasises the same thing, and so does wing chun. Considering how far removed these two are from each other, cross-cultural pollination can be ruled out. Techniques and philosophies that don't work tend to be discarded quite quickly, it's the natural selection inherent to styles that see earnest use.

 

[Rhade]

It's bloody difficult to prove a negative. The man's legendary status doesn't exactly help, there's so much **** about him that it's a wonder anything coherent can be extracted.

Also, 'perfecting' a style? Really? That's quite a claim to make, considering how many other dual-wielding styles there are around the world. Evidently, the people who practised European rapier and sidesword, Filipino sword and dagger, and a whole host of other dual-weapon styles couldn't tell a turd apart from a chocolate bar.

Musashi's emphasis on pragmatism and economy of motion isn't unique to him either. Off the top of my head, Liechtenauer emphasises the same thing, and so does wing chun. Considering how far removed these two are from each other, cross-cultural pollination can be ruled out. Techniques and philosophies that don't work tend to be discarded quite quickly, it's the natural selection inherent to styles that see earnest use.

Because other people used dual-wielding styles and because other people shared his philosophy on the economy of motion and practicality doesn't negate my points that it's more in line with his philosophy to not waste a style some say he "mastered" simply for practice.

 

[Night Ninja]

It's bloody difficult to prove a negative. The man's legendary status doesn't exactly help, there's so much **** about him that it's a wonder anything coherent can be extracted.

This was the portion that dealt with your claims on his use of dual-wielding. We don't know, can't know unless extraordinary evidence surfaces, and probably won't ever know. His writings are subject to further interpretation as well.

Because I hold two swords, I call my fencing style two-sword swordsmanship. Holding a sword in my left hand [as well as my right] implies nothing special. It only helps me gain the skill to be able to hold a sword with a single hand [instead of gripping one sword with two hands as was customary]. If a man were galloping along a narrow path near a river or if he were in a battle crowded with samurai, he would hold his shield in his left hand, thus restricting the free use of that hand. He would then have no choice but to grip his sword only with his right hand. [Without training] he will feel that sword inordinately heavy. Only when a man has experience and is accustomed to wielding a sword with one hand [can he excel in battle.] When an archer becomes experienced by shooting arrows in training, his shooting ability soars. When a man becomes accustomed to riding horses, he can command a horse well. This is not only true of martial arts but can also be applied to the everyday. For example, with practice fishermen can excel in rowing and farmers in plowing. In the same way, men, with experience, can attain superior ability with a sword [wielding it in one hand]. Needless to say, a swordsman must choose a sword that corresponds to his physical strength.

I don't know about you, but that seems to suggest quite strongly to me that his use of two swords was intended as a form of conditioning and technical exercise.

Additionally, pragmatism in combat doesn't necessarily equate to a similar focus in training. Refer to the earlier shadowboxing analogy. You perform a lot of technical drills in training that would get you utterly demolished if you attempted to apply the drill to earnest combat.