Two handed axe stats?

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reiksmarshal said:
I think they should have a chance to crush through blocks as well. Two handed axes were powerful and have good amount of weight behind them. They were certainly capable of smashing through a shield and damaging the target behind them.


True, though the head of war axes unlike utility axes were normally much lighter. To expound on that high end axes should be able to have the balanced trait.  I remember reading or was it watching? I think both that many of the medieval weapons we often think about as huge brut instruments were surprisingly light and balanced. Much of the myth of heavy hard to swing weapons of the age are based on Victorian replicas that looked good but were never meant to be weapons.

For cutting/slashing Axes concentrated the blow on a small area, so that it was often able to cut through light plates and armor - swords had the advantage of a long cutting surface, which made it more likely to do cutting damage.

For thrusting/piercing axes had horns with a sharp tip that protruded, though not as efficient as a spear point or dagger it made nasty wounds if it got through to flesh. Few German (including Viking) swords were used for thrusting, though most did have some sort of tip that was capable of it.

Blunt damage -- both axes and large swords caused blunt damage. There is no way of knowing what was the practice at the time, but it was common in the era when blades were still important weapons that they were not sharpened at all. Perhaps this is why the oft told tale of the crusading King Richard meeting Saladin and being amazed at the ability of the Eastern swords sharpness in its ability to cut a thread, but that the Crusaders were unimpressed by it as having an application in war. If you have any swords around the house try it yourself. I have a claymore I have never sharpened but it cuts through targets despite this. Being unsharpened had an advantage as it made the edge better able to withstand nicks and damaging yourself especially if it was unsheathed like most axes and large swords were in the era. If a clean blow from an axe or large sword did not go through the armor it would still have seriously uncomforted the target, much more than the club or other light blunt weapons.

 
Swords are practical vs plebs, axes (while weight forward and unwieldy) deal a greater crushing blow as well as chopping. Of course if you're doing it right you've skewered the sod on your spear before you get that close.
 
I don't know where I come down on the axe pierce vs cut damage argument.  I used to favor pierce but I am leaning more towards cut these days.  I'd like to get my hands on a Dane axe, chainmail, gambeson and ballistics gel/anatomically accurate human model and do the tests.  Until then, here are two videos of axes vs. chainmail. 

These videos are far from perfect!!! 

Video #1 uses a pig carcass that retains the extremely durable hide which does not parallel human skin at all!.  I have no idea if the chainmail is tantamount to Viking quality etc.  However, I was surprised to see the Dane axe fail against the mail.  Although you'd still be wrecked by the sheer force of the blow.  Axe starts at 10:23


Video #2:  I think the straw man model is way too soft and disperses the force of a blow too easily, thus weakening its strength.  He is also using a regular wood axe.  Again, I'm not sure if the chainmail is close to Viking make.  Axe starts at 2:51


In real life I am a scientist so if anyone wants to wire me a couple of thousand dollars, I can buy some quality gear and get these tests going in a controlled environement  :lol:
 
DerHerbst said:
I don't know where I come down on the axe pierce vs cut damage argument.  I used to favor pierce but I am leaning more towards cut these days.  I'd like to get my hands on a Dane axe, chainmail, gambeson and ballistics gel/anatomically accurate human model and do the tests.  Until then, here are two videos of axes vs. chainmail. 


There were some interesting ones put out in the "Deadliest Warrior" series. Kind of reenactment, meets experts, meets entertainment -- but very interesting stuff.
 
Yeah that's why I don't know where I stand on the pierce/cut issue.  I think the type of damage has almost as much to do with the armor as it does the axe.  I've seen axes pierce armor (plate and chainmail) on some Deadliest Warrior shows and other times it fails.  I think so much of the variation comes down to:
1) Who is swinging the axe
2) How rigid is the target
3) Length of axe blade
4) What part of axe makes contact first (blade, beard, heel etc)
5) Quality of armor

I have come close to ordering some Dane axes to test out but always put it off.  Plus, my neighbors may think I'm crazy if I start dressing pig carcasses in chainmail and attacking them with axes in my NYC backyard  :lol:  Or then again, probably nobody will notice anyway considering all the other weirdos around...
 
I hope two handed weapons aren't the be all/end all of combat they are in native, I like weapon+shield actually getting the appreciation it deserves in this mod.
 
I have some issues with those vids. The guys don't know how to actually use a lot of those weapons. The javelins were by no means thrown properly. If you pay attention in most of the throws the javelin is sideways. Though I doubt a javelin would really pierce mail, I doubt that with the way he threw them it would even pierce much of a persons skin.

The guy in the first vid wasn't much better. Some of his strikes were pretty solid, but his grip was wrong, his body was too tense, and a lot of the time the blades were coming in slanted (cutting edge not perpendicular to the body). If the cutting edge is off by a few degrees it stops being a cut and turns into a smack, which is exactly what happened with the spear, most of his false cuts, and his upward angled cuts with the sword. False cuts done properly indeed do cut flesh a lot more than that. His only good strikes seemed to be the ones angled downwards. I can garunteee this is due to his grip and the timing with which hes turning his body. Theres a reason you need daily practice to be good at using bladed weapons, and he wasn't. I believe Vikings practiced regularly, as they were a warlike culture.

I've studied swordsmanship for 4 years, so this opinion isn't coming from nowhere.

If as a scientist you want to do a study on the efficiency of weapons, please hire people that practice with them regularly.
 
@aikiwarrior 

There is actually a "rebuttal" video posted by another guy regarding the effectiveness of the false cut.  Again, the videos I linked leave A LOT to be desired.



Ideally we wouldn't have to rely on the scant demos located on Youtube but it's all I got at the moment! 
 
thats a pretty good video. They are pointing out the exact point I was trying to make. Gotta say though, I didn't expect the pigs head to explode like hat vs the Daneaxe.
 
You should also check out some archeology stuff. I remember one video about excavation of a body at Bamburgh Castle. Looking at the bones of some of the people in the graveyard from the 7th-11th century and some show what appears to be single strike wounds from shoulder to pelvis. OUCH! Likely an unarmored soldier against a highly trained warrior with a two handed sword or axe (I favor sword, as one thinks an axe might have hung up somewhere).

Also interesting info on weapons actually found. Though you have to figure surviving weapons may strongly favor the weapons of the rich and powerful.

Wish I could remember the link.  :sad:


Yea, and like all made for TV stuff there are loads of questionable statements and conclusions, but hey it is entertainment not science -- not that science does not make the same mistakes at times. I remember one forensic scientist PhD candidate that did research on effectiveness of weapons using random college students. If you doubt the effeteness of training and practice just take a old decrepit carpenter and a young college athlete and put them to a test hammering nails. I would put my money on the old carpenter. Sadly, we just cannot duplicate the old warriors, we should just realize that often tales that may seem incredible and exaggerated eventually turn out to have some reality behind them, like that skeleton nearly cleaved in half.
 
I really do love this DLC and I'm chomping at the bit for 1.04 to be released, I know they will get it to us when it's ready just the wait hurts. As for two handed axes they should be one of the most powerful weapons on the battle field, just raw brutal power that splits shields and crushes through blocks from time to time. That said it comes at a risk of being vulnerable to projectiles and all sorts of melee attacks. The key will be to use them in a assault/flanker role where they don't take the initial brunt of enemy fire. Once they are safely delivered to melee that is when they will shine and start to shred things.

So what do you guys think they will look like? I'm guessing more like these axes-

Long Beard
PukGsNv.jpg

Two-hander
JrZpxsC.png

 
reiksmarshal said:
I really do love this DLC and I'm chomping at the bit for 1.04 to be released, I know they will get it to us when it's ready just the wait hurts. As for two handed axes they should be one of the most powerful weapons on the battle field, just raw brutal power that splits shields and crushes through blocks from time to time. That said it comes at a risk of being vulnerable to projectiles and all sorts of melee attacks. The key will be to use them in a assault/flanker role where they don't take the initial brunt of enemy fire. Once they are safely delivered to melee that is when they will shine and start to shred things.

So what do you guys think they will look like? I'm guessing more like these axes-

Long Beard
PukGsNv.jpg

Two-hander
JrZpxsC.png


Beard would be from a much later period. Once that are dated to our period are more triangular or straight in profile shape. It should also have wrapping as many note this was the way Viking axes were secured, with a significant section of the wood handle showing above the eye. As for the blade it should be about 15cm as this is about the biggest from that period found. So the head would look rather small. It should also be light the extra wood adding no more than 1/2 kg to the weight of a smaller axe. I think there should be two kinds, short and long.

Short would be a little lighter and faster, length 90-96, damage should be massive like 48-50, with no thrust damage and bonus against shields.

A longer version, 106-110 (even if the shaft was longer you would to choke up significantly to maintain balance), less damage say 44-44 and slower, but with in addition to bonus against shield give it crush through block as well. It should have a thrust damage of about half its swing. My reasoning is the longer axe would have only been capable of truly massive blows in the downward arc, but it would not have been limited to it. As I do not think the engine is capable of distinguishing between side and downward the crush through block which seems to be limited to overhead blows would make up for this. The thrust damage is because this was now more of a pole weapon (a kind of primitive halberd) and its length would have made it easily used that way.

I think cut would be the best to give it. The high amount of damage and the likelihood that the soldier would have power strike will make it effective enough against armor. I think the trust could be cut too, by the time they developed two handed axes they had the protruding horn, I would leave it sort of weal though as this would be a very early example which the full halberd like pole arm use was not perfected yet.

 
Bearded axes have been around since at least the 6th century, this source is amazing.

https://archive.org/stream/DeNorskeVikingesverdEnTypologisk-kronologiskStudieOverVikingetidens_105/DeNorskeVikingesverd-JanPetersen#page/n41/mode/2up

Turn the pages!
 
OK, I have to make a couple comments on this any of which I'm happy to have disproved by Archaelogical finds of the appropriate period.

1) Two handed Axes would have been common throughout this period of history and for most history when people have had to fell trees to make things out of wood. While the truly weaponised 'Dane-Axe' of the Saxon Huscarls wasn't perfected until later on (10th-11th centuries) the grand Viking tradition of 'grab whatever is lying around the house and hit people with it' would have likely seen some application of these weapons against unfortunate victims.

While an argument can be made that any proper warrior wouldn't want to use a felling axe and abandon his shield, they still should be available if pitchforks are as common as they are in VC.

The vast majority of weapons at this time are simple tools; Spears are for hunting, Knives are for eating/carving/whittling, small axes are for firewood and trimming logs and big axes would have been there for felling.

The Vikings, for all their warrior reputation, were mostly farmers and fishermen who were fed up of a poor life in Scandanavia and decided to steal a better one from less hard-bitten men in the south. The weapons they brought were the tools of their life back home.

2) It is entirely possible to swing an axe that is longer then 100cm. I am 6'3 (interestingly I took part in an excavation at Bamburgh and many of the bones we found were not much shorter then me) and a viking reenactor. I use a Dane Axe which comes to rest just under my chin so say 172cm for the sake of argument. This is a proper Dane Axe so has a thin head but by the standards of the time is quite a large one. I can spin this, whirl this and smash it down in a variety of fun and exciting ways but get most kills in competitive fighting by feinting with it and altering stroke half way through.

Axes aren't like polearms because they are considerably heavier at the head, without much counterbalance. To use it at its best you let that weight do its thing and manipulate the momentum to go where you want it. During a fight the axe is best used in constant motion.

3)If an axe breaks it's going to break in the shaft. My axe is currently on its third shaft, and it's also on the way out. If you hit something so hard that there's even a risk of the metal breaking then the shaft will have already gone on you.

An example: At one point I brought my axe down towards another fighter and the skillful git slammed the rim of his shield up immediately underneath the head. The shaft snapped and the head carried on blissfully down to the ground. (I drew my sword and killed him, but still it was pretty cool/irritating)

While in my case modern day steel greatly helps, its worth remembering that Axes were primarily tools in this period and as such were built to take large amounts of brute punishment in a way that swords simply weren't. Swords are not tools, they do nothing useful but kill people and are engineered to be good at that (sharp, light and pointy) but technology at the time meant they were susceptible to tiny failures of the smith or metal.

4) If anything is out of place in this period it's two handed swords. The technology to make steel strong enough for a one handed sword was, as already mentioned, fairly open to failing at this time (part of the reason why Ulfberth swords are so intriguing). Making a two handed sword was even harder and I certainly have never seen a surviving account or example. In general Two-Handers evolve during the high medieval period.

I think two things perpetuate the two handed sword in this time frame; firstly the Gallowglass, no I'm not going to try and spell it in Gaelic, or famous irish fighters are for some reason attributed to Brian Borus son. In actual fact, they come about much later on and are essentially a poor version of the European Knight.

Here's a handy picture from the 1500s:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Gallowglass_-_D%C3%BCrer.png

Secondly there's the longstanding belief that Celts used two handed swords and their descendants would have kept this up. Now, I know less about pre-roman history then I do Dark Age so I'm happy to be proven wrong but my understanding is that the Celts used Long Swords which can be misconstrued as two handed swords. What they actually were is long-er then the Roman Gladius and more or less similar in length then the later Spathas and Germanic swords.
 
+1 to the above, best post I've seen on this thread yet, people always bring up how the Vikings used what was on hand as tools, as weapons. The moment anyome brings up the possibility of two handed axes all of the sudden they say "dat not possible." Whats to stop a raider from throwing his two handed axe on his back while his spear and shield are in hand? Especially when you're a long way from home and need to chop wood for camp etc.

On the two handed swords: the grips I'm ge barely accommodate the roll of a hand and a half sword, let alone a full bore 2 handed grip, I'm fact about three quarters of the lower hand hang below the pommel.
 
Dang, I wrote a long post on this but must have lost it before I finished, that is what four kids will do you ya.

Any way on axes in Britain Wheeler is the authority, here is a link to the pictures of some of his types of axes.

http://www.vikingage.org/wiki/index.php?title=Axes_found_in_Britain

Also has saex and swords. Like Petersen he is old, like 1927, but both are still the best there is as far as I know.

Here is a nice PDF on dates and stuff.

http://www.gav.org.uk/Research/Viking%20Age%20Axes.pdf


Here is the chart of blade shapes with time periods:

423px-Axe.png



As for the axes laying around, no doubt they were used, but I doubt any Viking would have brought them to Britain for that purpose. the Norse, Anglo-Saxons, Britons, and Celts had very different tools for war than for farm work or trades. And, I have never heard of a lot of the later being found on known battle fields.


Gallowglass were a result of the Viking Conquest, not part of it. They were the Celtic/Norse inhabitants of the Hebrides. They definitely used two handed axes, early Lochaber in style, and they used them as halberds (polearms) and not axes. Of course they also had two handed swords, but these are recorded for the first time in the 1200's. There is mention of long swords in Ireland (and Western Scotland), but I think this term is relative to the short swords used by the Romans. And, was likely the same as the Celtic Long Sword, which we have many examples of. Some of the Celtic long swords were six feet long, though they averaged under three feet. Question would be did the smiths of the 9th century retain the skill to properly produce the swords. Of course the Celtic long swords were also famous for bending which means they likely were used more to batter than to cut.



 
Ivan Khan said:
reiksmarshal said:
Jumping it up a 100 years? maybe if they add Dane axes which they are not.  The only real deference between a one and two handed axe is how long the haft is, it is hard to prove since we only have the axe heads for the most part. As far as breaking easy axe hafts are usually more durable then spears, oak and ash doesn't break that easy and can take a huge amount of punishment. They should have a chance to break like any other weapon, but certainly not as easy as spears. The length should range from .09m to 1.2m (Dane axes were 1.5-1.7m). 120 seems like it would be a good range to allow you to chop at a shieldwall in relative safety. 
 


It is a matter of the way the stress put on it. It is why they now build axe heads differently. And they still break and often. later they would reinforce the hafts with steel or iron because of this. Early like you say they were just long handles with a regular axe head. Just look at all the historical accounts of the long axes breaking in use in there heyday from 1100-1400 (I.E. Robert de Bruce splitting some fool English noble's helmet and head and breaking his axe).

As to 120, it seems a bit long -- just a bit -- at 120cm it is turned functionally into a pole arm and is no longer to swing. Just go out and put a 120cm handle on an axe and try it. You will quickly realize why the biggest ones used are about 92cm. As for a practical purpose if you have a custom made handle for your axe the rule of thumb for the maximum is the distance from your left armpit to your right wrist (also generally half your height). This is the length that a man can effectively swing. So at 120cm you would have to be 7' 8" tall to swing it with any power.

4 foot (120cm), Sounds great to me, for a manouvarable two handed axe.
While I've never swung an axe in anger, I've played around with them a fair bit. I have several (a total of about 15) reenactment axes with a length ranging between a little cavalry axe at 20 inches (50cm) and 6 foot 2 (18:cool:. And I stand about 6'2.
Personally I would say that a two handed axe 3 foot (92cm) would be too short to be practicable. Consider that swords from the period are pushing 32inches (81cm) in blade length. You are outreached, and lacking a shield. Hell, if the head is light enough you would be better using an axe that length as a one handed only switching if you loose your shield to a hook etc.
At 4foot (120cm) you are still on the short side for a two hander, but have more manouverability and controll than something longer.
Many people advise a twohander to be chin height on the weilder, so 5ft4 (162cm) on me, which is about the length of my second fav twohander.

Fraid it's been a long time since I turned my mind to the academics on this subect though (my interests moved a little later rather a long time ago) so I couldnt quote you much in the way of academic sources, just practical observation.

[Edit: I realise that I am somewhat above average height for a medieval person, but I believe the M&B figure is scaled at about 6ft. So the lengths would be in proportion.]
 
Bohemond Chesne said:
4 foot (120cm), Sounds great to me, for a manouvarable two handed axe.
While I've never swung an axe in anger, I've played around with them a fair bit. I have several (a total of about 15) reenactment axes with a length ranging between a little cavalry axe at 20 inches (50cm) and 6 foot 2 (18:cool:. And I stand about 6'2.
Personally I would say that a two handed axe 3 foot (92cm) would be too short to be practicable. Consider that swords from the period are pushing 32inches (81cm) in blade length. You are outreached, and lacking a shield. Hell, if the head is light enough you would be better using an axe that length as a one handed only switching if you loose your shield to a hook etc.
At 4foot (120cm) you are still on the short side for a two hander, but have more manouverability and controll than something longer.
Many people advise a twohander to be chin height on the weilder, so 5ft4 (162cm) on me, which is about the length of my second fav twohander.

Fraid it's been a long time since I turned my mind to the academics on this subect though (my interests moved a little later rather a long time ago) so I couldnt quote you much in the way of academic sources, just practical observation.

[Edit: I realise that I am somewhat above average height for a medieval person, but I believe the M&B figure is scaled at about 6ft. So the lengths would be in proportion.]



You are not that tall for a soldier who would use a two hand axe. Many excavated graves and accounts mention the large size of the Huscarls and Varangian Guard. So 1.8m to 1.9m (5'10"-6'2") was not that unusual even if most of the lesser warriors were around 1.6 (5'2"-5'3").

I imagine you are not using your 162cm axe in a two handed style. You and the others who talk about it sound like you are using them in a halberd style, and though neither is perfectly portrayed within the limits of the engine it is better represented by the no shield pole arms.

Here is a video of an axe in true two handed style. True Two Handed Axe Style You can see how much power can be developed, and the similarities to the use of two handed swords in  defense.

Now compare It tot he use of the Dane Axe. That is classic halberd use, hooking with the head, thrusting, heavy choking up on the shaft. Blows much weaker. it is why Dane Axes of the M-Style develop the thrusting horn and downward protrusion to act as a hook.

 
You know I wouldn't even care if they looked like the ones in the trailer that would be kind of sweet actually and pretty much what I had in mind anyways. I really hope the risk of running with a two handed axe is worth it, shields are pretty tough in this DLC so I'm really hoping there is a version that can crush through blocks. Without the crush through block ability most two handed weapons feel like your swinging a nerf axe around and they get stopped by everything.

I have been doing some testing with the long axe stats and here are the properties I would like to see give or take some balancing:

Long haft polearm version: 1.2m - 1.5m (roughly)
-Polearm animation
-50-56c damage
-Bonus vs shields
-Can crush through blocks
-70-80 swing speed
-can thrust

Two-handed axe version 0.9 m - 1.1 m
-two handed animation
-46-49c damage
-Bonus vs shields
-Can crush through blocks (maybe)
-75-85 swing speed


 

 
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