B Info Other tutorial/coaching session: How to lead a modding team

[Archonsod]

Building a decent mod requires a BUNCH of stuff ... models, textures, scripting/programming, design ideas and literary talent, not to mention the possibility of research into historical, linguistic, or fictional sources to be used.  Very few people have the skills to do all of those things.

Can't be overstated. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to shoot down in flames anyone who proposes an idea without having any practical (i.e. modelling or scripting) skills.

I'm sure there are plenty others out there who have added their own textures or weapons, tweaked the troops a bit, and played their personal mod but never thought for a moment about uploading it or even announcing it, because the 'fmaous' mods have set such a high benchmark....

If you can add your own weapons, you already know pretty much all you need to script an entire mod yourself, it's just a case of practice Python is a pretty simple scripting language to understand, the biggest difficulty for someone without a coding background is the basic concepts (variables, constants and the like).
Regarding the smaller mods, they'd actually be one of the prime candidates for "tutorial" mods. As long as you make the source available and make good use of commenting in the script then they're an ideal way for people to learn. Take a relatively simple mod shuffling some of the damage types around, someone can download it, take a look at the script and (hopefully) read your notes, then muck around and see the effects for themselves.

 

[Amman d Stazia]

one thing that I have to say in defence of the forum users though, is that nobody (except the 1066 team!) seems to have any problem with people using their creations - I've used lots of bits and pieces courtesy of other mod.s in the past...


Arch., yes, python does lend itself to that approach, but (for me at least) it's not easy to write up some script unless there is something similar already in existence to give me a guideline.  That's why new quests are so challenging....

 

[Ron Losey]

neskiairti:

Just read through the list, both here and over at MBX, until you see something being done that you might be able to do.  Then ask them if you can help out.  (Several big projects on MBX are running with only one coder each.  AW keeps a lock on the TLD source code, but most of the others will be glad to have help ... those are just the ones I know of.  I'm on the dev teams of several of them, but I'm not in charge of anything, least of all who they let monkey with their code.)

Note that everything with M&B is done in Python, and with a fairly limited module system.  Get the mod system and study it, learn what it does and what it doesn't do, and how it works.  Once you have a pretty good feel for it, see what you can do and what you can't do with somebody's mod script.

There are some cliques and controversy around here too ... I think that's part of being human.  I'm probably at the center of the biggest one, with the "realistic combat model" (RCM) I developed for Onin-no-Ran.  Now half the community hates me and it, and the other half would fight to defend me and proudly declare their projects to be "RCM mods".  I didn't really set out to be a controversial character - I just got that way due to the belief that physical reality was more exciting and easier to balance than wild computer-game fantasy apparently based on a D&D damage model.  But boy does it ever hit the fan when somebody mentions me. 

It's why I seldom post anything on the Taleworlds boards at all ... but the thread about mods dying just intrigued me.

Don't let controversy or criticism, infighting or stupidity get you down.  It's just part of life.

If you know anything about skeletal animation, there's huge (recently gained) potential there.  (PM me if you do, I can point you to the right places.)  Also, there's an open-mod-team project over on MBX, currently stalled due to lack of time by several of the more key people ... I can also point you to that one, if you want to take a crack at it.

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Archonsod:

No, it's not just shooting people down if they have an idea but few skills.  It's shooting down people who have made no useful contribution in the past.  Again, my "Realistic Combat Model" is, practically, just a few changes to stats ... basically a zero-computer-skills project, unless you count running statistics in my head as a programming skill.  However, it's made me one of the best known names in the M&B mod community.  When I started that project, Fujiwara and Triglav (actual swordsmen, themselves) took a big chance backing me on the project, and letting me use OnR as a test platform - knowing they would pretty much be laughed off the dev team if it failed.  Of course, it didn't ... it was an overnight sensation far beyond what anybody could have expected, and has since pretty much become the standard for large historical mods ... but they didn't know that at the time.  At the time, they were taking a big chance by betting on the untested new guy, since my only contribution up to that point had been rhetoric.

Someone who was known as a top historian for several mods could propose a mod from some historical era, and chances are members of the other dev teams would chip in and help.  Someone who was a top historian at some university but who had never been involved in an M&B mod before could propose the same, and everybody would shrug and wander off.  It's an issue of having people who know you, and who know you'll work at it and contribute useful input.

 

[Archonsod]

one thing that I have to say in defence of the forum users though, is that nobody (except the 1066 team!) seems to have any problem with people using their creations - I've used lots of bits and pieces courtesy of other mod.s in the past...

In fairness, it'd be a bit pointless to let all and sundry use parts of your mod while charging for the whole thing

Arch., yes, python does lend itself to that approach, but (for me at least) it's not easy to write up some script unless there is something similar already in existence to give me a guideline.  That's why new quests are so challenging....

The benefits of working in a non-production environment. You can screw the script up beyond all recognition, and the worst you'll ever need to do is reinstall the mod system You'd probably learn quite a bit just by fiddling with the existing quests, or trying to create identical ones from scratch.

No, it's not just shooting people down if they have an idea but few skills.  It's shooting down people who have made no useful contribution in the past.

Same thing. Past contribution isn't necessarily the best indicator of talent; that guy proposing an Ancient Egyptian mod could be a fourteen year old kid who thinks pyramids are cool, or it could be a professional Historian specialising in the Old Kingdom. We've no way of knowing. Really, we should be judging on the merit of the idea itself rather than who proposes it. If it's an appealing idea, then the skill of the user proposing it is irrelevant.
What we should be doing when someone says they have no ability in modding is finding out whether they're willing to learn. It works out better for the community in the long run, not only do we get more mods, but we'll get another skilled modeller, scripter or researcher into the bargain. All it takes is a little patience, and a willingness to say "I'll teach you how to do X, but you'll need to find someone else to do the rest".

At the time, they were taking a big chance by betting on the untested new guy, since my only contribution up to that point had been rhetoric.

Which is the issue Far too few people are willing to give the new guy a break. If you posted RCM as an idea thread now, you'd get two pages of people telling you to piss off. Without more people willing to take a chance on an untested newbie, then I can't see how the modding community is going to grow. Whether that's letting them muck about with your mod, or teaching them to build their own.

 

[Cymro]

Both of my mods are in a comatose state at the moment, as, although I enjoy the coding aspect of it, I really don't have the time to keep them up to the newest version - which is probably the biggest killer with regards to starting mods.

 

[Ron Losey]

Again, they took a chance on the untested new guy because I spent some time discussing stuff on the mod, and so gave them time to weigh the merits of what I was saying.  I didn't just write up a general proposition out of the blue ... I first contributed some knowledge on the subjects of ancient warfare and edged weapon combat, and gave everybody a chance to assess my skills and my commitment to a project.  When what I was saying checked out, people were a lot more willing to take a chance on someone with minimal modding background.

If I had just posted a thread:  "I propose a modification of the combat statistics to reflect actual damage to a human body, as based on what I have researched and (unfortunately) seen..."

Of course, everyone would ignore that.  Number one, they would have no reason to believe that I knew anything about the subject.  (Why should they?  Every self-proclaimed martial arts guru and film critic thinks they know something about the realities of combat.  Odds are they know less than nothing.)  Number two, they would have no reason to think this would be an improvement to the game.  (Reality often sucks.  It is therefore logical that games based on reality will suffer the same.)  Number three, they would have no reason to think I would stick around and finish it.  All of these would be enhanced by the track record of others who attempted similar projects, usually changing a handful of stats resulting in equally unrealistic and fantasy-based results in the initial release, followed by the project evaporating.

However, by spending a couple of months trying to learn to mod and getting involved in the discussions, at least a few people got the idea that 1. I was quite possibly crazy, but I did know what I was talking about - when I mentioned tactical realities of armed conflict, it was because I had seen blood drawn before, and 2. I planned to stay around and support the project (in that case, Onin-no-Ran).  Based on this, my proposition had demonstrated merits.

A person presenting a completely new idea (i.e. the mentioned fictitious example about Ancient Egypt) would need to demonstrate in the first post that he understood both the research aspect, the technical limitations of the program, and the literary burden of creating the necessary plot.  Someone who generally proposed a mod on Ancient Egypt would be ignored.  Someone who proposed a mod based around the aftermath of the military campaigns of Ramses I would be much more likely to draw attention, as this has signs that the issues of plot and research are being addressed.  Both would be ignored unless they could demonstrate a viable plan to include working chariots, or at least the name of the person expected to provide them with such code.  Without demonstrating this degree of planning, nobody will expect much.

And, of course, the ones who were ignored would never round up enough help to get started, unless they planned to do the mod entirely by themselves.  And why shouldn't they?  A great expert on Ancient Egypt is no help at all if he does not understand the limitations of the M&B engine ... his propositions are doomed to be impossible.  A great setting, no matter how well researched, does not make a story without some plot involved.  Without a demonstration that such things have been considered, there is every reason to believe the project is doomed.

And without help, that belief of doom will most certainly become self-fulfilling.

That's just the long and the short of it.

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Reality is, being a mod lead is very tough ... especially for a major conversion.  It isn't a job for new people.

New modders need to get involved with other people's projects or generic mini-mods for a while, and develop their skills and their contact list.  That way, they can get involved and make meaningful contributions while learning.  Only after they are confident of their skills, and have a well-developed list of people who will help them, should they attempt a major mod.

Those with extremely specialized skills should just post that they have such skills and would like to get involved ... preferably in the thread or subforum of a mod somewhat related to or needing their particular skill set.  That or create a mini-mod applying what they know, and wait for others to come to them.

It's not normal for people entering the work force to just go out and start a multi-million-dollar company ... most start at low-end jobs, and either work their way up, or at least learn the skills they need to start their own company.  However, computer game modders often-as-not try to start out by beginning their own major conversion mod.  Odds are they are setting themselves up for failure.

 

[neskiairti]

well i already have some experience with the module system.. went through winters old tutorials and what not.. but that didnt take me very far.. and now its been 2 new versions since i last looked at anything..

what really triggered it for me though was starting to learn to code in another language and finding i had a nack for it.. so I figure I should find some focus for it to develop those skills.. im not so sure the module system is the best choice.. but atleast it'd be fun for a bit atleast untill I can figure out what kinda basic program I might want to write..

 

[Ancientwanker]

Hmmm, I dont think I have much to add but I'll chime in anyway....  Modding for a game that is still under development is a marathon, not a sprint. 

An important ingredient in the relative success of TLD (in this small pond) has been maintaining my modding motivation.   I don't stress about releases, I stop modding for months at a time whenever I feel like it,  I work on whatever interests me at that moment regardless of any "schedule" or expectations.   I make sure that I'm having fun or I don't do it. Period. Exclamation point. Modding isnt hard but it takes time and the best way to find that time is over the long haul, in bits and pieces.   To make sure that your mod gets that attention always listen to your own fun meter and follow that.  Don't **** with the fun meter.

If you sense something will sap your motivation and fun, avoid it.  It's a good metric.

Another good tip:

---Don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't expect people to come up and knock on your door asking to help you.  Recruit via pms where you are weak.  Dont rely on want ads.

EDIT: removed useless tips, its all covered elsewhere in this thread.

 

[hayabusa12]

I did a little mucking about, tweaked the game how and where I liked, and then I tried to do somthing a little bit larger, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBhQhKWOZmk&feature=related 

 

[HardCode]

I don't stress about releases, I stop modding for months at a time whenever I feel like it,  I work on whatever interests me at that moment regardless of any "schedule" or expectations.

Heck, your like a Chinese water clock! Once your new version comes out, we know it's time for Armagan to release the next week!

On topic, it also seems that some people just want to lead a mod and not contribute. (Disclaimer: I admit that I didn't contribute a whole lot to Band of Warriors, outside of keeping it alive when fisheye didn't want it anymore. But I also didn't lead it when he came back ) What I learned to do is to look at what he did, how he did it, learned about WinMerge (FTW!) and got to see how he did things. One thing leads to another, and suddenly I've figured out how simple it is to change a village's culture when taken over, and not just its faction. I've gotten a better understanding of slots for items, troops, villages, etc. I can look at the code and see how to make the New Game option screens etc, etc, etc. The point I'm trying to make here is that not only the outdated documentation is available. There are projects with open source code that new modders can look at. fisheye and NCrawler and myself comment the code so it is clear what was changed, why it was changed, and the original code is still there commented out. A little leg work by a budding modder would go far.

Also, a previous thread reminded us that this is a beta I am very confident that once version 1.0 is released, Armagan will have solid official documentation on the module system, and it will help new and experienced modders a whole lot.

 

[italiano]

In my situation I just went with what I felt offered the most. My history:

1. I started with a mod that planned on being realistic and bringing flavour to the setting (M&B: Hardcore, re-named M&B: Epic). I found out that my ideas overlapped extensively with those of another mod, so I changed the setting to a fantasy one.
2. While working on the original idea I had started to fiddle with the campaign map textures and released them as a mod (Graphical Enhancement.
3. I change the setting of my mod again since I felt there were enough fantasy mods already, so I switched to the classical world with fantasy elements such as undead armies, powerful items etc.
4. While working on this setting I started to significantly alter the textures and soon added these to my graphics pack and released it (Graphical Enhancement 1.2).
5. I still had cravings of realism so M&B: Realism was born. This mod was not meant to make a lot of changes and the focus was meant to be on Epic.
6. I started working heavily on the textures and ignored my other two mods. Eventually I worked my way to releasing Graphical Enhancement 1.4.
7. Now I only plan on smaller updates for the graphics mod I have gone back to work on my realism mod.

Out of the 3 mods I started, one is released, one is well under way and the third went through several setting changes and will never see the light of day. I guess my point is that tastes and ideas change. Many people who start mods simply move on to something else.

 

[Archonsod]

On topic, it also seems that some people just want to lead a mod and not contribute.

Leading is contributing. In fact, once the team gets to a certain size it's impossible to do it without someone who basically knows what the left and right hands are doing. It's also useful even in small teams simply to have someone capable of arbitration. Mind you, I'd never let my project lead get away with sitting on their arse all day, there's always something they can do that requires little to no practical skills, whether it's preperation for the next stage of the project or simply dealing with the curious masses.
Problem is, I've yet to see any post where anyone has even bothered finding out whether the poster simply intends to lead or not. Like I said, would be nice to see someone say something along the lines of "you learn to do X, Y and Z and I'll help you do A, B & C". At least that way you find out whether they're willing to put any effort in or not, plus you give them a goal to aim at beyond "piss off and do it yourself".

There are projects with open source code that new modders can look at. fisheye and NCrawler and myself comment the code so it is clear what was changed, why it was changed, and the original code is still there commented out. A little leg work by a budding modder would go far.

Commented or no the ability to read code is something of an acquired skill. Giving someone without any coding background a full blown script to read tends to prove intimidating.

I didn't just write up a general proposition out of the blue ... I first contributed some knowledge on the subjects of ancient warfare and edged weapon combat, and gave everybody a chance to assess my skills and my commitment to a project.

Thing is, I've seen propositions for mods better documented and far better presented than some of the currently released mods ever were. I can understand it when the suggestion is a grammatical aberration of a single sentence, but when you have someone putting forward a proposal that reads like a design document should then it's a bit silly to dismiss them out of hand simply because they can't script or model. The fact they've put time and effort into the suggestion would argue for their commitment to the project, and to be honest I think people often underestimate the value of a consistent, well developed idea. Perhaps not so much for historical mods, but certainly fantasy mods and the like benefit from having a fully fleshed out, detailed world; and that's something people actually do for a living in the real world.
Also, with regards to knowing the limitations of the engine, I don't think that's as important as the willingness to abandon or change an idea if it proves too hard to implement. I seem to remember a few people, including some experienced modders, stating that Pirates mod wouldn't work because M&B can't handle ship combat ...

 

[HardCode]

On topic, it also seems that some people just want to lead a mod and not contribute.

Leading is contributing. In fact, once the team gets to a certain size it's impossible to do it without someone who basically knows what the left and right hands are doing. It's also useful even in small teams simply to have someone capable of arbitration.

I think I didn't write that very well. I meant that it seems like a lot of people want to the the Pointy Haired Boss [Dilbert reference ] You know, just tell people, "make this script", "create that model," "make me a map," "create some troop trees," but not touch anything themselves and only make decisions. That won't usually lead to a successful mod. At the minimum, if a mod leader can put together all of the elements created by others, that would be more effective. Anyone can dictate, but not everyone is willing to follow.

There are projects with open source code that new modders can look at. fisheye and NCrawler and myself comment the code so it is clear what was changed, why it was changed, and the original code is still there commented out. A little leg work by a budding modder would go far.

Commented or no the ability to read code is something of an acquired skill. Giving someone without any coding background a full blown script to read tends to prove intimidating.

True enough. But I would think that anyone interested in creating a mod could learn to install Python, change item and troop tuples, and figure out party templates with the assistance of a scripter. It isn't the ability I'm implying, rather the willingness to learn. That sometimes seems to be missing from most threads with mod ideas. I think a good way for someone who wants to make a mod, but has no programming or scripting experience should conclude their original thread with a proposal to get on some chat client with a scripter interested in helping so that they can learn the basics of getting around the module system. Just asking that in the thread shows that they have a plan, which is the most important thing in any modding/development. That might contribute to the mod's success.

 

[Nethoras]

Quite simply people lose steam, they just get bored of the project, or hit a roadblock and they just lose the determination to get past it. They are missing a team member.

They find something more rewarding, often a girlfreind or a boost in social life otherwise, and they are content with being a simple gamer and having a social life, Im not saying that anyone who has a social life and/or a girlfreind cant make a mod, there are many of us who do it.

School is often a big factor for people I know especially people going into Colledge and other post secondary facilities simply dont have time to mod effectivly.

 

[Archonsod]

I think I didn't write that very well. I meant that it seems like a lot of people want to the the Pointy Haired Boss [Dilbert reference ] You know, just tell people, "make this script", "create that model," "make me a map," "create some troop trees," but not touch anything themselves and only make decisions.

Even that might be enough though, particularly in the case of a fantasy mod. It's like being the Mod researcher, except in this case your expertise is on the world you've created. In most creative franchises there's usually someone who looks after the background as a full time position, though admittedly the large majority of mods wouldn't have the wealth of material or indeed the depth to make this viable. Nonetheless, someone looking after continuity helps; it's the kind of thing that stops you claiming the elves are fighting the dwarves in one conversation yet they're cosy friends in another Obviously, if you're not willing to take someone else making the decisions then there's little point in joining a team in the first place.
Like I said though, most people dismiss anyone out of hand who doesn't have coding or modelling skills without finding out if they're actually willing to do anything else, or even try to learn any of these skills.

True enough. But I would think that anyone interested in creating a mod could learn to install Python, change item and troop tuples, and figure out party templates with the assistance of a scripter.

Probably, but even then they probably wouldn't consider themselves scripters. I've noticed a few people actually offering to do such tasks for mods now and as I expected, they've had a fairly overwhelming response Part of it is confidence, like I said if you can do those you've pretty much got all you need to do the rest, you just need the push to take it further, however most people probably don't realise this, and put such arcane things as simple_triggers.py into a completely different drawer.

Just asking that in the thread shows that they have a plan, which is the most important thing in any modding/development. That might contribute to the mod's success.

Unless this is pointed out to them they're not necessarily going to think of it themselves. Anyone new to modding is not  going to understand exactly what's needed to bring their mod to fruition, so it's unlikely they themselves are going to be able to pro-actively suggest what they can do. If you're not interested in joining the project, then suggesting something like this is a lot more productive than the usual response. If you are, then it's up to you to state precisely what you expect them to provide, and I don't mean just saying "what will your role be?". Something more like "I'll do X, Y and Z, but I need you to come up with all the dialogues, the map and similar" is a lot more constructive, and provides them with a nudge in the right direction. Even just a qualifier - "Show me an outline of the plot/background and I'll think about it".

 

[CounterPoint391]

Personally, I find a lot of my 'mini-mod' packs and stuff die just due to a loss of interest. Many haven't even made it to a forum thread. I guess the same could be said for many other mods.

Also, I thought the thread deserved to be necromanced, for the new generation of Warband modders.......

 

[Amman d Stazia]

Spoiler

thanks, I'd actually forgotten about this thread (in my defence, my wife started it, not me!)

I'm thinking of re-naming it "how to avoid your mod dying" or "how to start a good mod project" and asking for it to be stickied, because in the nearly 2 years since the OP, there have been thousands of mod suggestions made, but -let's be blunt-, only a few dozen really good mods and a few score really good minimods or 'add-ons'.

(Just for the record, NONE of my work makes it into the 'really good' category.)

Having explored at the start of 2008 why mods fail to get off the ground, hopefully more posts in this thread can be constructive coaching for being part of a mod team.

Hey, that's a decent title for the thread....

please, if you are reading this thread, add your positive experiences of what helped you continue with modding, even if you never finished or released the mod.

please, if you have come up against a real setback which discouraged you, share that too, even if the focus of this thread is how to be successful, because part of that is recognising the warning signs of approaching/potential disaster!

 

[Jezze]

This seems really useful. Thanks for digging it up .

 

[Amman d Stazia]

overview/summation:

disclaimer - anyone who feels that their key point has been omitted, please please please re post it, don't get grumpy!

1 - the information here is useful not only to a person who wishes to LEAD a modding team, but also to a person who has an idea for a mod, and is willing to be part of the creation team, but is not a natural leader...

2 - A good idea is a start, but requires work.

3 - A mod requires work.  the more difference between your mod, and native, the more work it will be.

4 - The work will be made easier, if you (A) plan it out and (B) share it out.

5 - Showing what you can do is a good way to attract assistance/support.  Producing anything of whatever format or value, also shows that you are willing to get stuck in and do stuff.

6 - Motivation is big: Keep yourself and your team motivated, and don't be afraid of a time-out, because at the end of the day making a mod is a hobby like any other.

7 - Seeing results helps with motivation, so it can be a useful strategy to release the mod in stages, rather than holding off until you have The Big Change done.  Playing your release, and giving you feedback, other gamers will provide renewed motivation.

8 - Don't let the bastards get you down!  People will always criticise.  Even the best mods like TLD and EATRC have received some nasty insults in their time.  If you're happy with your mod, then that's what matters.

9 - Do not plagiarise, but DO look at other modders work.  Get a feel for what can be done, who has been involved in doing it or similar things already.  This gives you a list (and you will be surprised by how few names) of the experts who are out there.... leading to

10 - ask an expert.  People who are really good at modding do NOT trawl the forums looking for struggling projects to save!  they do their own thing.  On the other hand, with one exception my wife and I have asked hundreds of questions and been given only helpful and supportive replies.  This forum is full of people who are happy to help, you just need to ask them.

 

[Amman d Stazia]

more on The Plan

It doesn't matter if you plan a small solo project, or already have 4 or 5 'I'm-interesteds' for a massive conversion team.

Your plan should start with communications.

Sad to say it, the first step is to get off this forum (UNLESS you start with a 'publicity' release that will entitle you to your own sub-board and moderating rights.)

Otherwise, the unfortunate truth is that your communications will be very difficult due to random posters, negative comments, and ever-repeated questions about release dates.

The Plan starts with a statement of what you want to achieve. (The Goal).
Then, state your current skills including all team members.  Be honest.

State how you think you can achieve The Goal.

If the ability to achieve The Goal is not in your list of current skills, you have three options:
Most preferred - your team will learn the missing ability
Otherwise, you need to either recruit the talent into your team, or change how you achieve The Goal.

Think about motivation - plan it in, because you are not paying your team for their time, you MUST give them personal gratification for doing the things they do.  Even when the team is just you, plan in some motivation.  It can be as simple as 'every time I compile a script, I am going to play the mod for a while to enjoy my new items/scenes/dialogues'.

Distribute the workload fairly.  You have identified what needs done, how it can be done, and who has the ability to do it.  Now, assign tasks.  Take into account that real life may prevent some of your team from modding non-stop!

ALWAYS plan for a team member to drop out.  This means, for every ability, you will want at any given time two team members to have that ability.  If your skill pool does not have this cover, learn the ability yourself or encourage your team members to learn it.

A plan is never set in stone.  Be prepared to change the 'who' and the 'how'.  Be prepared to listen to suggestions about altering the 'what'. 

Don't plan minute details.  The details will fall into place if you have people doing what they do well, and enjoying their work.