Turtle Knights - OSTRACIZED FOR SUCCESS IN RECENT YEARS AND NOT <=2012

[Fietta]

While it's true home-aways tend to be artificially closer due to the ping advantage, it's also true that they almost never actually end in a draw, and that the better team wins, so it seems to me that it's an imperfect system that still functions relatively well. Poland know they should have won that match, and NA brought enough fight to get a surprise. Whilst they arguably had a slight advantage in ping and have the artificial closeness which helps against top-tier teams, they also have that home win rate working against them in every single match meaning the potential of an upset against weaker teams is constant for them.

Like I suggested elsewhere, there are some slight variation we could do (doing 2 whole matches is probably the best solution if anyone can be arsed to do it) but it works well enough as it is imo.

Huh? In the case of home and away, Its definitely not the 'better' team, winning under poor circumstances doesnt mean its necessarily better at any point. Relying on getting the first round on away by doing some crap wildcard tactic or setup doesnt mean you're better. How is stomping almost all home being a true reasoning for being a better team? You're relying on fluke tactics and random crap to win rounds. Did agincourt deserve to be in the finals because they got second place in the leaderboard so they deserve it? No. Because the circumstance of how it happened was the stupid brains of people picking. In this case it's the format.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

There have been many home-away matches and very few upsets, therefore I feel pretty confident saying in most cases the better team wins. Even NA vs Poland isn't that much of an upset, NA fielded good players. Poland "should" have won and I'd give the edge to them on even pings, but by no means is it a given.

edit: I think you'd be better pointing to the fact that NA is an alliance of countries with nearly 400 million people and that their best players are a mix of the two, but given that the tournament was run by a cheating BeNe I guess this alliance was never in doubt

 

[Fietta]

There have been many home-away matches and very few upsets, therefore I feel pretty confident saying in most cases the better team wins. Even NA vs Poland isn't that much of an upset, NA fielded good players. Poland "should" have won and I'd give the edge to them on even pings, but by no means is it a given.

Right let's get UK to fight CN on home and away instead of using a MOSCOW server? It's almost like we accommodated for China differently than the home and away system...

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I already said that in specific circumstances a middle server can be found, such as NA vs TR, but that no such server exists for the matchups we're discussing.

 

[Fietta]

I already said that in specific circumstances a middle server can be found, such as NA vs TR, but that no such server exists for the matchups we're discussing.

If you're saying fairness has no relation to ping aslong as there's a middle ground then I dont entirely know what to tell you apart from that you're being silly.

I still feel like you're brushing over the fact that these NA sets are won on home 83% of the time because ping affects skill.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

 

[Fietta]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

Great so we've both decided that the home and away system is awful and brings nothing to the table and matchups are just a waste of time as it's not an accurate representation of skill. I'm glad we both agree.

 

[Thunderbeu]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

Great so we've both decided that the home and away system is awful and brings nothing to the table and matchups are just a waste of time as it's not an accurate representation of skill. I'm glad we both agree.

but its good enough

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

Great so we've both decided that the home and away system is awful and brings nothing to the table and matchups are just a waste of time as it's not an accurate representation of skill. I'm glad we both agree.

The only waste of time is ever trying to hold a conversation with you.

 

[Surkan]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

Great so we've both decided that the home and away system is awful and brings nothing to the table and matchups are just a waste of time as it's not an accurate representation of skill. I'm glad we both agree.

The only waste of time is ever trying to hold a conversation with you.

amen

 

[Fietta]

Perhaps you can create a self-made puzzle and mindgame it out if it helps.

Great so we've both decided that the home and away system is awful and brings nothing to the table and matchups are just a waste of time as it's not an accurate representation of skill. I'm glad we both agree.

The only waste of time is ever trying to hold a conversation with you.

amen

brave coming from you

 

[Terrible_Swordsman]

Fietta what is your ideal "middle ground" server for NA vs Western Europe? Unless you have some deep **** connections with a family owned oil rig you won't find anything thats "fair". Also I think a lot of Europeans forgets the fact that the North American continent is pretty massive (about 4500km from LA to NYC for example). Half our scene will always have garbage ping in Europe, there is not really a good solution for that.

 

[sigi1]

europeans complain that they get 30 ping instead of 7 ping lol poland literally delayed the match 30 mins to argue for 20 ping on their own home servers

The wins that NA have been getting on EU hasn't been decided by 1 lucky round in the away set. They've gotten their wins fairly, off of outplaying and outcalling their opponents in the EU sets which have won their eu sets. This goes for the EUs that win the sets in NA. If the argument is correct, that these games are determined by the 6-10 important away rounds instead of the entire 20+ rounds in a usual match, shouldn't the best players come out clutch? Why is it that NA is able to clutch it out in the away sets but EU isn't? NA has no scene atm, eu teams have been playing a group of rust buckets. The only thing play off of is the game sense and awareness that never goes away. As they're playing officials, they're warming up after every round of it.

Poland had it. They got their decisive round in the NA set. Why were they unable to pull it out in their home court? Why did they crumble? The odds were all stacked against NA in the final set. How is it that NA was able to come out? In fact, it's much more impressive isn't it? That NA won 3-0 on Castellum against Poland in EU, arguably Poland's best map?

In a competitive environment, the best players shine under the lights, pressure, and odds against them. This is true in real life sports, online video games, and even the exams you take in your classes. The fairness of home-court obviously sucks. We've all agreed to this since day 1. However, to use it as an argument to undermine the achievements that the current NA team is obtaining? To say that, because of the system, we can't determine if there is any skill involved between the NA and EU matches? What does this even mean? We praise EUs for popping off in NA tournaments and NA sets, but when NAs pop off in EU sets, it's wrong? foh

 

[Fietta]

Again, I've already told you that the Poland situation happens, underdog teams beat top teams on a match; AE lost to atleast 1 team in WNL'seague stage. The difference here is that due to the pijg different and home normally winning, any small mistake on (in polands case the last set) would cost them the match, all top teams make mistakes. It's extremely hard to determine if its skill or just plain ping (as shown in the 83% home wins). NA teams can lose to tier 3 teams and beat tier 1 teams, that's because of the system with the home almost always being stronger, so the other team relies usually on the last set where mistakes could easily happen.

NA praise EU for popping off in NA, that's because EU never play home and away, they always play away on NA, so every set is against them in terms of ping, so when they pop off, its more of an achievement than relying on a piss poor home and away system where almost always home wins...

I congratulate NA for the win, I'm not against NA, I'm against the system.

Let's say NA always played away with 80ping on the EU server and manage to win or even have a close defeat, that can ultimately show true skill; you dont need to win to see who's the better team, but the home and away system gives almost no indication of who's the better team as home usually wins and ultimately relies on any team choking in one set or just having a round on away. Even if you fall flat with 80ping, you winning a tournament with this home and away system is far less commemorable than falling short in the knockouts as only away and considering the away usually has 110+ ping which gives a far less reasonable outcome than playing on a UK away with 80ping (all of your NA team is pretty much eastern europe). If EU can get to finals with a 4 set away with 80 ping on NA, then NA can do the same in EU.

 

[Orion]

Are we not at a point where the deciding factor between great teams isn't necessarily which team has the best technical skill (because all players are highly proficient), but which team makes the fewest mistakes? If a top tier team is biffing it and making mistakes when they have all of the advantages, why is it a fault of the system when their opponent capitalizes on it? The problem with the system is that it creates a safety net for teams to make mistakes on their home sets, but if their opponents are capable of capitalizing on those mistakes despite that then they're clearly doing something right.

 

[Fietta]

They're not capitalising on the mistakes, heat of the moment mistakes always happen; once a mistake is made in the first round, the potential to steam roll the set is much greater. You're right in saying most top teams could ultimately come down to punishing mistakes when they occur numerous times during a match, but the point is, this isnt two top tier teams fighting, it's one top tier team and one underdog team with an awful system in the mix.

 

[sigi1]

You realize North america is a continent and not everyone gets 80 ping to uk right?

 

[Fietta]

You realize North america is a continent and not everyone gets 80 ping to uk right?

Correct. I'm basing it off the current NA team which is mainly eastern USA.

 

[Thunderbeu]

i still don't see what your issue is with the home away

 

[Fietta]

i still don't see what your issue is with the home away

That almost doesnt surprise me