Turtle Knights - OSTRACIZED FOR SUCCESS IN RECENT YEARS AND NOT <=2012

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Yeah, I'm clearly telling you '**** off NA, you don't deserve your victory'. Honestly, I spent a really long time discussing this on discord with a few NA people but no matter what, it seems you guys will always be convinced that feeling sympathy for Poland over the situation means dismissing NA's victory so not much I can do about that. I don't have the energy to redo the whole conversation here.
 
I don't think you understood the main point of my post, I'm not attacking you or claiming that you're saying NA didn't deserve. It's just ironic that home/away is suddenly a huge problem now that it has disadvantaged a big team in EU. I get Poland's frustration because it's always been a (mostly brushed off) problem for NA teams.

Nothing wrong with your post Tardet, just the irony of it all bothered me, you know?
 
Same thing happened to USA. Watly forced John, Arys and I’s team to play in the UK for our home sets. It wasn’t a problem then though, only now it is because for once NA got a fair shake
 
Tardet said:
Yeah, I'm clearly telling you '**** off NA, you don't deserve your victory'. Honestly, I spent a really long time discussing this on discord with a few NA people but no matter what, it seems you guys will always be convinced that feeling sympathy for Poland over the situation means dismissing NA's victory so not much I can do about that. I don't have the energy to redo the whole conversation here.
Not rly. It's you asking for sympathy over a fair ruling when NA has received the shaft for years, with 0 sympathy from admin teams. Maybe now you understand since the roles are flipped.
 
Glad Poland got absolutely monged gotta give you my props for that, I also agree that Tardet providing a salty message as administrator (especially when he had the power to voice an opinion on a different method) is unacceptable. There's one issue that's not entirely touched upon though, which is the fact people mess up the word 'fairness' when it comes to competition.

Fairness could mean either one as they're mutually exclusive:

Provide an 'even' playing field for both teams based on ping difference (the home and away system).
Provide an 'even' playing field based on a team's ping skill potential.

The first point is self explanatory but the second point is a bit more complex in the sense that 120 ping isnt an accurate representation of a team's skill, so to minimise this you only include teams where the ping difference has no influence on gameplay, especially when you could potentially have the weaker faction with higher ping, easily meaning you could get stomped as the opposing team has the stronger faction with the better ping. It wouldn't be as bad if the people playing on the stronger faction have worse ping as the faction advantage for that map ultimately has a clear advantage in a specific class field, but still, ping ultimately being RNG to some respects past a point. You could 'adapt' to 120 ping, but that adaption shouldn't have to be the case as you're actually having to go against a high ping team maybe once or twice in a year - so its ultimately not worth it an arguably unfair. Besides, having too high a ping means you're not using the warband's mechanics as intended (warping through players, it's not a mechanic, it's not a skill, it's a hindrance as a result of awful netcode.

You're probably wondering 'but NA players have to adapt to EU ping' and that's completely true, but you've also go to remember, NA is a large place where the pings usually range from 20 - 100, so usually people are playing with that ping constantly, so not only are you good on the side with high ping, you'll also be good on the side with good ping whilst most EU teams would be only good on the side with low ping. This brings me onto the mutually exclusivity, what even playing field are we going by? The fact that there's no real 'ping' advantage when we're talking raw numbers? Or are we going by the fact that an even playing field should be a field which teams can show their potential with the scene they've adapted to and use the mechanics as intended instead of having constant delays or warping? In most current tournaments we're using the first option which oddly isn't the best option.

NA played well because they have the ability to do that with the different pings; pings which ultimately shouldn't be allowed to be even consider when it comes to competitive tournaments in Warband (other competitive games have good enough netcode to have little to no difference between 10 ping and 100ping, warband's not the case).

Even though including every nation ever in such a small community is a good idea, if the community is good and healthy enough to continue in their own continent, then the inclusion of others should not be the case. Why do you think there's multiple regions and region locked tournaments for most competitive games?

NA, you played well and I respect that (Poland are just losers at this point), but don't go away thinking that it's either team's true potential and that you're 'better' than the team you faced.

Juve said:
I don't think you understood the main point of my post, I'm not attacking you or claiming that you're saying NA didn't deserve. It's just ironic that home/away is suddenly a huge problem now that it has disadvantaged a big team in EU. I get Poland's frustration because it's always been a (mostly brushed off) problem for NA teams.

Nothing wrong with your post Tardet, just the irony of it all bothered me, you know?

You've been around in the community for years to know that this isn't the case; home and away has ALWAYS been a problem and has always been changed to find the best suitable option because it just simply doesn't work (due to the reasons above), the home and away system only exists because we want you to play, otherwise it's always been an issue and seems to always be an issue (probably in bannerlord too). The poland example, they're ultimately salty because of the loss, but that match was a perfect indication as to why the system doesn't work. If the EU nations had thr choice of the inclusion of NA under the awful home and away system; they'd probably say no but its tradition at this point so arguing against it before the tournament starts would bring nothing. The rules are pretty much copy and pasted every year, so the home and away system just sticks around. Gibby Is pretty much the only person who thinks playing with high ping to include other continents is a good idea; but that's because it's cool rather than practical.

Even NA know that they're not better than the polish team, NA have always been underdogs; you're not suppose to win if you're taking the latter of the mutual exclusion. NA is fantastic, but obviously shouldn't have won. I wish you goodluck in the finals and I'm sure this will go down in NA history.
 
You're saying they won because they are more used to high ping and did better away than Poland because of this? Doesn't that mean Poland did worse at home than them? I mean they lost the match at home on their map as swadia against rhodok.
 
Fietta said:
NA is fantastic, but obviously shouldn't have won.

Well, Poland lost a home set 3-1 on an open map with swadians (arguably the strongest fac on open) against the worst open map fac (rhodoks), which shows they didn't play well even with the ping they are used to play with. In fact, they were fairly confident to beat us 6-0 on home sets and many EUs thought the same, and it's not like we won only a round away, we won a whole set so saying that Poland should have won is not accurate at all. The fact is we'll never know who is the better team because of the home away system, but the only thing we can know is that Poland messed up that set (and ping had nothing to do with it.), so I guess they should not have won either. 
 
Kiano said:
You're saying they won because they are more used to high ping and did better away than Poland because of this? Doesn't that mean Poland did worse at home than them? I mean they lost the match at home on their map as swadia against rhodok.

Ok so if you were to write a tl;dr there was more reasoning than just 'they are used to high ping' my whole point is about how high ping affects raw gameplay mechanics and what teams do to mitigate that. There are also many mental factors too. 'their map' doesnt necessarily mean much, I'm sure they think they're good on that map but obviously that depends on the opponents tactics, factions and whatever of the opposing team. You're right in saying that poland did indeed lose on the stronger side on the last set.

Alyss said:
Fietta said:
NA is fantastic, but obviously shouldn't have won.

Well, Poland lost a home set 3-1 on an open map with swadians (arguably the strongest fac on open) against the worst open map fac (rhodoks), which shows they didn't play well even with the ping they are used to play with. In fact, they were fairly confident to beat us 6-0 on home sets and many EUs thought the same, and it's not like we won only a round away, we won a whole set so saying that Poland should have won is not accurate at all. The fact is we'll never know who is the better team because of the home away system, but the only thing we can know is that Poland messed up that set (and ping had nothing to do with it.), so I guess they should not have won either. 

Teams lose to weaker teams, that's standard and happens in every tournament; many things could cause that, it's not uncommon. Even NA players were asking how they lost, even as a joke, it still shows that it was clear that poland's performance throughout the tournament and their players they fielded were strong and shouldn't have lost the match. How they oost the match I don't know, but they shouldn't have lost even if they lost at home. It happened and it was well played, but that doesnt negate my point of ping directly changing the core mechanics and delay, which is the main issue to address. AE lost a match in every WNL ladder stage, even though the majority of the time their team could flaw any other team into the dirt. Even though poland lost a home, most sets had a dominant side (which was usually the home side apart from the unfortunate last set) and it's clear that you're relying on getting a single round on the away side to gain a small round advantage to win the match, the fluke of poland was just unfortunate and happens, but the rest of the match CLEARLY favoured the home side (just like group stage week 1 where the home side only ever won the set 3 - 0)

So I'd rather talk about changing the current system somehow then discussing with NAs how they outplayed poland at that one match at that one point in time.
 
I'd also want to make clear that out of the 24 sets NA played against other teams, the home side won 20 sets and the away side only 4 sets with the majority of scores being 8 - 6 or draws, with almost all of the home winning sets being stomps. Theres a clear issue needing to be addressed.
 
Bottom line is they lost in the fairest conditions we have to offer

Also Fietta your point about all of us playing on high ping is not too true, west coast players are the guys that play with 80 ping in north america and rarely play in EU cuz they'll get 200, the majority of the NC competitors are east coast guys

 
Thunderbeu said:
Bottom line is they lost in the fairest conditions we have to offer

Also Fietta your point about all of us playing on high ping is not too true, west coast players are the guys that play with 80 ping in north america and rarely play in EU cuz they'll get 200, the majority of the NC competitors are east coast guys

I understand that they lost in the fairest conditions possible and I respect that; but these conditions are just not good enough for competitive play, all home sides almost always dominate, it would be arguably more fair to remove NA from the NC so more exciting and 'fair' matchups become possible. This isnt because I hate NA, more-so the infrastructure in 2019. I'm glad you beat Poland because they deserved a good beating, but it's very unfair to arguably both sides for this home and away system - there has to be a middle ground. Accomodating EU should be priority as the main nations are there, and then the most west coast european servers could be used for NA (like UK servers) because then east coasts would get like 80ping which is what EU players in NA have always played in the past in NA with them weird EU teams that have formed. We dont expect to have a home and away system for a tournament that's main populus is NA.
 
OurGloriousLeader said:
How is "completely **** over one team" rather than slightly **** over both teams a middle ground lol

Yes so home teams winning 20 sets over the 4 is a 'slight' **** over - that's very silly, even for you OGL. The matches are that awful, you may aswell just keep them as a default draw, because they bring nothing to the table. NA on away would get 110+ ping on German servers, why not give them 80 ping on all sets on a UK server?
 
Fietta said:
Thunderbeu said:
Bottom line is they lost in the fairest conditions we have to offer

Also Fietta your point about all of us playing on high ping is not too true, west coast players are the guys that play with 80 ping in north america and rarely play in EU cuz they'll get 200, the majority of the NC competitors are east coast guys

I understand that they lost in the fairest conditions possible and I respect that; but these conditions are just not good enough for competitive play, all home sides almost always dominate, it would be arguably more fair to remove NA from the NC so more exciting and 'fair' matchups become possible. This isnt because I hate NA, more-so the infrastructure in 2019. I'm glad you beat Poland because they deserved a good beating, but it's very unfair to arguably both sides for this home and away system - there has to be a middle ground. Accomodating EU should be priority as the main nations are there, and then the most west coast european servers could be used for NA (like UK servers) because then east coasts would get like 80ping which is what EU players in NA have always played in the past in NA with them weird EU teams that have formed. We dont expect to have a home and away system for a tournament that's main populus is NA.
DISCLAIMER -I don't speak for the NA team because I'm not a member of it these are my own thoughts-

Key word, almost

Their is skill in winning away from home and realistically this isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things the Poles were given the same opportunities the NA team were given, 2 sets at home 2 sets away.

Yes we don't expect to to play sets in NA either in an EU hosted tournament meant for the EU scene but this is is supposed to allow every nation to compete and with our circumstances this is what we have and I think its about as fair as it gets

Like OGL said in the other thread best way to go is swap each set that way whatever team has 2 in a row at home can't build up steam or whatever etc etc.
 
If argentina beat the ****test EU team, then I cant say 'always', almost being 83% of all sets won being stomps on home, clearly indicates it's not a viable option. You keep bring back the wrong reasoning for fairness, if I have 100000 ping against away and 1 ping home, in terms of where it gets played its fair, but the skill isnt fair.

The minor change OGL suggested would make no difference for the stomps.
 
While it's true home-aways tend to be artificially closer due to the ping advantage, it's also true that they almost never actually end in a draw, and that the better team wins, so it seems to me that it's an imperfect system that still functions relatively well. Poland know they should have won that match, and NA brought enough fight to get a surprise. Whilst they arguably had a slight advantage in ping and have the artificial closeness which helps against top-tier teams, they also have that home win rate working against them in every single match meaning the potential of an upset against weaker teams is constant for them.

Like I suggested elsewhere, there are some slight variation we could do (doing 2 whole matches is probably the best solution if anyone can be arsed to do it) but it works well enough as it is imo.
 
Maybe won't change the stomps but it does do something in my head I feel like playing 2 in a row gives you an edge

This is fair enough and I can't say the matches aren't boring, but it's your duty to win and Poland didn't lose cuz of home away, they dropped rounds on their "almost" always 3-0
 
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