Turkey Right Now

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You're a ****ing joke. The government jails military officers and you call them nuts. And then you propose that the protesters take up arms and start shooting at the ****ing police? Sure the police has been brutal, but they're not intentionally trying to kill the protesters.

Beaides, the protesters already seem to have a lot international support. If the protesters take up arms both party's are going to commit war crime and everything is going to turn into a cluster****.
 
The government jails military officers and you call them nuts.
The extremist Muslim government party jails secular military officers by the dozens, why shouldn't I call them nuts?

Sure the police has been brutal, but they're not intentionally trying to kill the protesters.
For how long? Until they cut off communications?

Beaides, the protesters already seem to have a lot international support.
What good is that worth? International support is the joke, not me. European or American support is unreliable at best. Libya and Egypt can attest to that.

As a side note, ****, even if there was a legitimate reason to arrest the military command, they've left themselves nearly defenseless to any international aggression.
 
I don't see how the government supplanting the only secular part of itself doesn't imply that it's already too far gone.
 
Austupaio said:
Apparently, I am. Turkey doesn't have a modern government, clearly.

Modern civilities don't apply here.
Yes, they do. For some reason you have a very low opinion of Turkey's democracy, it really is in a working state. This is not Egypt or Syria or Iran, and they probably have it better than Russia, but that's kind of close.
Guns don't solve problems, contrary to popular American opinion. :smile:

The present government has been too long in power and various sections of the society are fed up with it for various reasons, so I assume it doesn't have a lot of support. This may just bury them in the next elections, and they know it, so presumably they would back down at some point.
 
Maybe it is my American view points, I can admit that but I don't see how you can call this government a 'working' state.

Any government that destabilizes it's command structure for the purposes of religion is a government that shouldn't exist.

Edit; no guns don't solve problems in the 21st century. I know this. My point is that I don't think Turkey has quite gotten to the 21st century yet.

Mid-20th century, guns sure as hell solved problems.
 
Austupaio said:
I don't see how the government supplanting the only secular part of itself doesn't imply that it's already too far gone.
I Mean, you want another country fall into complete destabilisation, scattering millions refugees into the neighbouring countries? For example, Greece. It is already becoming a neo-Nazi state, imagine what will happen if millions of Turks start flooding in from a massive civil war.

Anyway, I wonder how Cameron will react, since the UK is re-arming the Turkish military.
 
Kobrag said:
I Mean, you want another country fall into complete destabilisation, scattering millions refugees into the neighbouring countries?

Anyway, I wonder how Cameron will react, since the UK is re-arming the Turkish military.
This is where I'll admit that it's purely opinion (not opposed to fact but opposed to principles, if you get what I'm saying with) and that I think a destabilized, government-less region is better than a corrupt, inept religious theocracy.

Goker said:
The officers that were jailed get replaced, yknow. Military doesn't just go away, it just "changes hands".
Except that several key positions in the structure are currently un-filled and certain roles were given to religious heads or party members that are unsuitable and/or incompetent.

From what I can tell, which is extremely limited due to the messed up media, the Turkish military is extremely vulnerable and decentralized.

Edit; General Hayri (I use his given name instead of his surname due to not being overly familiar with Turkish names) doesn't even have a direct chain of command over the departments of Supply and Ordnance, which are basically autonomous at the moment.
 
Austupaio said:
The government jails military officers and you call them nuts.
The extremist Muslim government party jails secular military officers by the dozens, why shouldn't I call them nuts?
Because you're a hypocrite? And going around shooting the police is even nutter.

Sure the police has been brutal, but they're not intentionally trying to kill the protesters.
For how long? Until they cut off communications?
They haven't done that yet, we can't just take assumptions. That would be like shooting a man in a fight because he might have pulled a knife on you.

Beaides, the protesters already seem to have a lot international support.
What good is that worth? International support is the joke, not me. European or American support is unreliable at best. Libya and Egypt can attest to that.
It still counts. Obviously the government cares how they are internationally viewed. Taking up arms would also scare 2/3 if the protesters. Seriously, the worse the government is going to act, the more support the protesters are going to get, that's including from within Trukey.
 
Austupaio said:
Kobrag said:
I Mean, you want another country fall into complete destabilisation, scattering millions refugees into the neighbouring countries?

Anyway, I wonder how Cameron will react, since the UK is re-arming the Turkish military.
This is where I'll admit that it's purely opinion (not opposed to fact but opposed to principles, if you get what I'm saying with) and that I think a destabilized, government-less region is better than a corrupt, inept religious theocracy.

Goker said:
The officers that were jailed get replaced, yknow. Military doesn't just go away, it just "changes hands".
Except that several key positions in the structure are currently un-filled and certain roles were given to religious heads or party members that are unsuitable and/or incompetent.

From what I can tell, which is extremely limited due to the messed up media, the Turkish military is extremely vulnerable and decentralized.

Edit; General Hayri (I use his given name instead of his surname due to not being overly familiar with Turkish names) doesn't even have a direct chain of command over the departments of Supply and Ordnance, which are basically autonomous at the moment.
If you can even remember, there was a destabilised government-less region that was perfect for the formation and cementation of several religious extremist organisations.  :roll:
 
Rams said:
Because you're a hypocrite? And going around shooting the police is even nutter.
Quote what I said that was hypocritical and I'll try to correct it.

As mentioned, I believe what the police have done qualifies them as combatants, they are shooting people in the head with rubber rounds and gas canisters. Not throwing them on the ground, not shooting in extremities, in the head. They are killing people.

Engaging combatants is legitimate.

They haven't done that yet, we can't just take assumptions. That would be like shooting a man in a fight because he might have pulled a knife on you.
Sure, but when they do, I hope people understand the danger they're in.

It still counts.
You're right, I'm sure the tweets and facebook statuses really help the protesters withstand rubber bullets in the temple.

Obviously the government cares how they are internationally viewed.
Obviously, it doesn't. That's kind of what this is all about.

Seriously, the worse the government is going to act, the more support the protesters are going to get, that's including from within Trukey.
How many civilians have to die aimlessly to get external support? If Operation Desert Storm is anything to go by, quite a ****ing few.

Kobrag said:
If you can even remember, there was a destabilised government-less region that was perfect for the formation and cementation of several religious extremist organisations.  :roll:
Can you elaborate rather than roll your eyes, adding nothing to the conversation? Both on your point and the case in point.
 
Erdoğan made a press conference thing, in which he claimed some media sources controlled by the opposition parties irresponsibly "provocated" the people. I suppose he doesn't like a few TV channels covering these issues, since the channels he owns did not even mention anything about them.
 
Austupaio said:
Rams said:
Because you're a hypocrite? And going around shooting the police is even nutter.
Quote what I said that was hypocritical and I'll try to correct it.

As mentioned, I believe what the police have done qualifies them as combatants, they are shooting people in the head with rubber rounds and gas canisters. Not throwing them on the ground, not shooting in extremities, in the head. They are killing people.

Engaging combatants is legitimate.

They haven't done that yet, we can't just take assumptions. That would be like shooting a man in a fight because he might have pulled a knife on you.
Sure, but when they do, I hope people understand the danger they're in.

It still counts.
You're right, I'm sure the tweets and facebook statuses really help the protesters withstand rubber bullets in the temple.

Obviously the government cares how they are internationally viewed.
Obviously, it doesn't. That's kind of what this is all about.

Seriously, the worse the government is going to act, the more support the protesters are going to get, that's including from within Trukey.
How many civilians have to die aimlessly to get external support? If Operation Desert Storm is anything to go by, quite a ****ing few.

Kobrag said:
If you can even remember, there was a destabilised government-less region that was perfect for the formation and cementation of several religious extremist organisations.  :roll:
Can you elaborate rather than roll your eyes, adding nothing to the conversation? Both on your point and the case in point.
I was alluding to Afghanistan. Once a state is in turmoil, it isn't as difficult for outside agitators to form a faction to take up the roles of government.
For instance the religio-nationalist group the Taliban, who then let the Al-Qaeda cement itself in Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan.

This time it may be the Shiite Hezbollah (this is speculation, as I would expect sectarian tensions to flair up in the Majority Sunni turkey), who are fighting on behalf of Iran and Syria within Syria, and are presumed to be building a presence within Iraq.
 
I was alluding to Afghanistan. Once a state is in turmoil, it isn't as difficult for outside agitators to form a faction to take up the roles of government.
For instance the religio-nationalist group the Taliban, who then let the Al-Qaeda cement itself in Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan.
Keep in mind the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are very few in number, armaments and external support. They're not comparable to the Turkish government in terms of destructive power.

This time it may be the Shiite Hezbollah (this is speculation, as I would expect sectarian tensions to flair up in the Majority Sunni turkey), who are fighting on behalf of Iran and Syria within Syria, and are presumed to be building a presence within Iraq.
You think they would move into Turkey if this event flared into out-right conflict? I do not know, I would not even try to speculate do ignorance of the internal Muslim issues.


Just to address the arguments being made, I'm perfectly willing to accept that perhaps Turkey is forward enough to do this peacefully and legally, although I doubt it.

I'm far more concerned with the implications of a military, any military, being entirely at the mercy of a religious organisation.
 
Quite disturbing pictures from Turkey indeed, the police quite brutally tried to disperse the crowd and I'm afraid this could escalate into a much bigger mess there.

 
Nah. Erdoğan's press conference was to the point. He labelled everyone was there as "fascists" and claimed they were being provoked by the Opposition Parties. He said the Police were working under harsh conditions but they would look into the claims of excessive force.

I mean, I can understand the Police working under harsh conditions. They ran out of gas canisters and had to get resupplied before the morning by trucks from a different city. That's just hard work.

Meh, Erdoğan basically shat all over the people's worries, protests. He waved his hand, turned his back while uttering a few words saying "I don't care about you. I've got enough supporters."
 
The burning of tents in the early morning seems genuinely criminally negligent, but the allegation is that undercover police in street cloths burned them, while the authorities say the protesters burned their own tents. Sounds like the sort of story you still won't get a straight answer on ten years from now.
 
There was a video of a civilian helping the police capture a guy and beat him senseless. Pretty sure that was an undercover cop, as the rest of the cops did not do anything to him while they were all carrying him away. Here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8r7OC6NEpE&feature=youtu.be



One more thing Erdoğan said: "The Police were there yesterday. They're there today. They will be there tomorrow."

That sounds like a threat to me, especially with the way the police has been acting.

Here is a video of a cop slapping a guy who is eating at a restaurant with his wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEtBM7wCr3E They keep saying that they're only eating and not doing anything. The police just slaps him and leaves.



Some university students camping outside a TV Station as a protest for their lack of coverage about the Gezi Park incident.

1370053601_ntv-yi-basti-oturma-eylemi.jpg
 
Taksim Square right now
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http://www.cezmikalorifer.com/video/izle.php?id=712327
That old man isn't a protester. He lives near around Taksim and "I'm tired of gas! That's enough!" he said.

Edit:
282940_422637691166939_688530301_n.jpg
TVs in Turkey. Nobody knows what happening there. They all can see only Erdogan. No, FührErdogan.

Edit2:
944157_423466757761349_1059089543_n.jpg
"Love the Tree, **** the Mall" Kugulu/Ankara
 
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