Turkey Right Now

[Temuzu]

Yeah, I doubt it would work out that well.

 

[Austupaio]

So far the casualty count seems highly in favour of the government.

Good luck standing around though.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Counting police casualties as a sign of a successful political protest, always a great plan.

 

[Austupaio]

With a military dictatorship, what other signs are there?

The police are killing people left and right, the government shows no legitimate sign of remorse.

 

[Bluehawk]

Low protester causalities is also a victory for the police, as far as PR goes.

 

[Goker]

Protestors are not trying to inflict casualties, mate. No one wants to start a civil war, not until there are no other choices.



The Turkish News Channels are not covering the issue as well as foreigners. The protests are being organized by Twitter mostly, with 6/10 Worldwide Trends being about this. People are saying the government will shut down the internet. We'll see about that in the coming hours, I suppose.

 

[Austupaio]

If the government shuts down the Internet, I think that's initiating a civil war on it's own. From what I can tell, Turkish citizens don't seem to have very many rights and shutting down communication is the beginning of a crack down.

I'm mature enough not to go all CoD-kid and say that war is cool and a legitimate solution for everything but I don't think the Turkish government is going to be budged without a few live rounds being expended.

 

[Mad Vader]

Stahp pls.
The whole point is about peaceful, civilized protest contrasted by police brutality. If there was ONE protestor with a gun, the public opinion could turn against the whole movement and the government would more easily justify heavy-handed tactics.
They will succeed in the end, they only need to continue with passive resistance, this is not Iran or some other police state.

 

[Austupaio]

Seems to me that people in Iran have more rights.

They will succeed in the end, they only need to continue with passive resistance, this is not Iran or some other police state.

Not if the military shuts down the Internet providers and telephone lines/towers, if need be while the police push forward more aggressively and disperse people into their homes or into rioting groups.

Bring the military in to aggressively disperse and arrest the violent groups leftover and... crisis averted. That's what I see happening at this stage.

 

[Goker]

Turkey has always had gun control. It's not easy for civilians find weapons, unless they bought one before and had a permit.

More reports of people seeking refuge in German/French schools in İstanbul, as well as Military barracks, which the police are not allowed to enter. Several hotels in the vicinity offer food and medical care and the people are organizing protests in 20+ other cities.

Take these with a grain of salt though, as I can't find many reputable sites covering these reports. Some major newspapers have not even mentioned the protests.

 

[Austupaio]

Wait, so the military may be offering shelter from the police?

Edit; also, I remember having a similar conversation back before the Egyptian riots. I remember then saying that the government would push back too hard and people would have no choice but to drop the pretense of peaceful protest and fight back. Exactly what happened.

If the Turks truly manage to sway their government with a purely peaceful protest, in the face of abusive police forces, I will be incredibly impressed.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

With a military dictatorship, what other signs are there?

As far as I know, the military are the ones who have a history of enforcing the secularism in the constitution in Turkey. They are not on friendly terms with the ruling party due to recent events of the government prosecuting members of the military who they claim were planning another political coup to reinstate secular rule.

Turkey is a democratic state, in the 2011 general elections, the dominant international view is that it was a fair election. Political routes are not closed off to people. This doesn't seem to be an issue of a government assuming dictatorial powers, but of it failing to be accountable and not ruling in the aggregate interests of the entire population, since there is such a significant section of the population that would disagree to the point of mass protests.

The police are killing people left and right, the government shows no legitimate sign of remorse.

When you are handling mass protests and shooting gas canisters and rubber bullets, people do die from being struck by them, as with the frequent use of brutality against people which is not justified at all. As far as I can go on the reports, they are not using live rounds, but the reaction an extension of the anti-freedom of press and speech laws.

To start shooting at the police would be to initiate an escalation that the civilian population, even if they were armed with small arms, will pay a heavy price for. Even those police that aren't using brutality will be justified in looking after their own lives if they get reports of guns being used or hear of gun shots in places where they aren't using any.

I'm mature enough not to go all CoD-kid and say that war is cool and a legitimate solution for everything but I don't think the Turkish government is going to be budged without a few live rounds being expended.

That line of thought isn't very mature either. The path to politics isn't entirely closed off to Turkish citizens. Killing someone in a protest, when you're not even quite sure whether they deserve it or not, isn't worth several decades working in the politics to change these things. The claim that shooting the enforcers of the current ruling party is justified when you see something you disagree with happening while the political process remains open is utterly unjustified. You and I would hardly say it would be justified for people who oppose abortion because they think fetuses are babies, or people who oppose the death penalty to use lethal force against people enforcing these policies, even if they were doing so in a poorly trained, and undisciplined manner.

 

[Goker]

Of course, no revolution would be a revolution without a petition to Obama. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/condemn-actions-taken-against-peaceful-protesters-istanbul-turkey/zDGtGCDZ 

Wait, so the military may be offering shelter from the police?

Offering masks and shelter, yes. CNN reported some military personnel being threatened with gas bombs by the Police yesterday, after a Police Truck wanted to enter the military barracks to turn around because they were having troubles with the tight streets. Incident ended after the Police backed down, apparently.

Spoiler

Swadius seems well informed on the matter.

One of the Opposition parties, CHP, is organizing a meeting at Kadıköy to gather people. They will be marching towards Taksim afterwards.



More Police Brutality surfacing after last night. http://youtu.be/x8r7OC6NEpE



BBC News' report on Today.

Turkey is entering a second day of violent protests, with fresh clashes between police and demonstrators in Istanbul and the capital, Ankara.

The protest began as a sit-in over plans to redevelop Gezi Park in Istanbul's Taksim Square, but escalated after police used tear gas.

Tear gas was again fired on Saturday as hundreds of protesters tried to cross a Bosphorus bridge in Istanbul.

In Ankara, protesters tried to march on the parliament.
Transport lockdown

Hundreds of demonstrators marched over the bridge connecting the Asian and European shores of Istanbul on Saturday morning to try to reach the main square.

Police fired tear gas to try to disperse them and some protesters threw rocks.

Police also fired water cannon and tear gas in Taksim Square as demonstrators chanted "unite against fascism" and "government resign".

Clashes were also reported in the Besiktas district.

One Istanbul resident, who gave her name as Lily, told the BBC's World Service: "There are 40,000 people crossing the bridge between Asia and Europe today. All the public transport is on lockdown."

She said that police had dropped tear-gas canisters from helicopters overnight.

"About half past one the entire city started to reverberate. People were banging on pots, pans, blowing whistles," she said.

The BBC's Louise Greenwood in Istanbul says police from as far afield as Antalya are being drafted in to help quell the violence.

She says the central Taksim district and surrounding areas remain cordoned off and bridges are closed to traffic.

Istanbul's governor said a dozen people were admitted to hospital and more than 60 people detained after Friday's clashes.

In Ankara, protesters staged what they described as a solidarity rally, with many participants chanting: "Everywhere is resistance, everywhere is Taksim!"

On Saturday, protesters chanting anti-government slogans tried to march on the parliament.

The US has expressed concern over Turkey's handling of the protests and Amnesty International condemned the police's tactics.

Witnesses said tear gas was deployed randomly on people who were "by and large protesting peacefully".

What began as a small scale, peaceful protest to clear Gezi Park, one of the few remaining green spaces left in Taksim, has escalated into some of the worst scenes of public disorder and police violence seen in Turkey in recent years.

I was at Gumussuyu, on the edge of Taksim, at around 22:00 last night. Vast, blinding clouds of pepper spray and tear gas were being deployed by baton-wielding officers in riot gear who turned on thousands of protesters.

Bricks and paving slabs were pulled up and used as missiles by the crowds. Police in vehicles drove at them in an attempt to get them to disperse. With Taksim closed, demonstrators massed in the surrounding areas of Cihangir and Beyoglu and anti-government slogans and chanting continued through the night.

 

[Austupaio]

Then I rescind everything I said, if the military supports the people then that's really all they need.
I don't know what Turkish military culture is like but if they're anything like American, British, Russian... hell any troops then I'd love to see the Police try to tear gas them.

Although, on a semi-final note.

The claim that shooting the enforcers of the current ruling party is justified when you see something you disagree with happening while the political process remains open is utterly unjustified.

Police in vehicles drove at them in an attempt to get them to disperse.

The police are clearly combatants here, I don't see how engaging them with a firearm would be considered unjustified.

 

[Goker]

Then I rescind everything I said, if the military supports the people then that's really all they need.

The military can't do anything on its own. It was one of the first things AKP targeted. Hundreds of Military Officers are in jail right now, alongside journalists and artists.

This article by Richard Seymour sums the issue up quite well. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/31/istanbul-park-protests-turkish-spring

 

[Austupaio]

Military Officers

in jail

wat

I rescind my rescind, it's pretty clear your government is ****ing nuts and you guys need to take it down.

Edit; after reading that article, you're already at civil war. Constant attempts at a coup is a bit of a sure-fire sign.

 

[Chechen!]

I'm mature enough not to go all CoD-kid and say that war is cool and a legitimate solution for everything...

Appearantly you're not.

 

[Austupaio]

Apparently, I am. Turkey doesn't have a modern government, clearly.

Modern civilities don't apply here.

 

[Lord Burgess1]

I want to eat some turkey right now.

 

[Austupaio]

I've read more about the AKP jailing key members of the military and all I have to say is, how the **** did this happen?

How does a nation let it's entire military structure be dismantled by the civilian government, much less an extremist religious government?