SP - Player, NPCs & Troops Troops grouping UI, pre-battle setup, formation AI

[CalenLoki]

I'll start with a picture, and explain below


1. Change troop grouping to drag'n'drop, rather than clicking on the little banner. Just drag whatever troop you want to have in group 2, and drop it under it's mark in the troop list.

• Each group would show troop count (including wounded troops too).
• Ability to collapse group content would help organising big armies.
• Dragging group higher in the list should make it enter battle with higher priority (if battle size limit prevents spawning everyone).

2. Allow pre-battle setup of your groups:

• Type of a group. Just so commander knows what to shout. Infantry/archers/cavalry/horse archers/ect.
• Additional restrictions.
  • "!" next to group type automatically throws out anyone who don't have required equipment. So in our example, any horseman that looses it's horse swap to group 2.
  • Health restriction, so if soldier gets severely wounded, he'll switch to nearest available group (i.e. reserves or archers).
• Relative position at the start of the battle. In our example infantry will stand in front of all other groups, while cavalry wait behind on the left flank.
• Follow target (not pictured).
  • You can either set yourself (so they'll follow you from the start),
  • Other group (i.e. order archers to stay behind infantry)
  • Nothing (so relative position is just for battle start)
  • Reserve (they won't spawn on the battlefield unless you call them to battle by blowing a horn)
• Formation type. Line/column/wedge/circle/square/half-circle/ect.
• Stance determine how strictly troops will keep formation. It can be applied to any formation shape, and will affect both how they stand and how they move.
  • Defensive (shield icon) will make them static, like current shield wall.
    They'll stand in very tight formation.
    They'll also keep shields up and stay in formation when ordered to move.
  • Dynamic (shield + sword) will make them manoeuvre within 1-3m if enemy comes nearby, or if they need to pick up arrows/get better firing position.
    They'll stand with small gaps between them, so they have more freedom in melee.
    They'll try to keep some formation while moving, but much less strictly. They won't keep shields up to move faster, but they'll raise them if under fire.
  • Aggressive (sword) allows manoeuvring up to 5-20m if there is any enemy nearby.
    They'll stay in loose formation.
    They'll ignore formation and shield blocking during movement to go as fast as possible.
• Ranged weapon usage (not pictured): Fire at will/Conserve ammo (shoot/throw only if high chance to hit)/hold fire.

3. Troop position in formation should be relative to the troops right next to him, rather than to some distant group origin. That would help both combat efficiency (less formation breaking during manoeuvres) and immersion (line that waves looks much more real than perfectly straight one).

Example: Blue is group sergeant, group takes formation around him. But each troop position himself relatively to just one of his buddies (green arrows). Violet broke the line a bit (Maybe he has low tactical skill? Or maybe he moved forward to attack?). Pink guys followed him, as local formation cohesion is more important than keeping the long line straight.

4. Each troop should have formation position ratio, based on his equipment, current health and morale.

• Shields increase it the more, the bigger they are.
• Weapons decrease it, the longer they are (ranged weapons decrease it a lot).
• Health increase it.
• Morale increase it.
• Those with higher ratio should go into the first line, while those with lower should stand behind.

5. Troops that don't move, have no enemies within melee range and don't shoot or pick up arrows should crouch with shields up. In all formations.
They could be forced to stand up either by setting their stance to aggressive or by ordering them to hold fire.

6. Troops melee behaviour should depend on their position in formation, morale and health.

• Those in first line, if there is ally behind them, should be more defensive, prioritising blocking over attacking.
  They should also choose shield over other weapons, and shorter weapon over longer (if they have equipment choice, i.e. shield+sword+shield or shield+1h+2h).
• Those with ally in front of them should be more aggressive, prioritising attacking over blocking.
  They should also switch to longer weapon if they have the choice.
• If none of above is applicable (i.e. single line or no formation) they should balance attack and defence (which means - more blocking than currently).
• Troops that are wounded or have low morale should prioritise defence over offence.

7. Allow placing one group in relative position to other group.
I.e. infantry stand in front of archers. Whenever those archers are ordered to move somewhere, infantry will try to stay in front of them.

8. With all those changes player commands should change as well:

• Move to position works just like now.
  But if you press alt and click on friendly or enemy group icon, it should issue order "follow them" or "advance towards that group" respectively.
  If the target group get's destroyed, it should automatically switch to "stop" or "advance" respectively.
• Groups that are set to follow (either you or other group) will take movement orders close to followed unit as setting their relative position.
  Only move orders far away from the followed target will make them stop following them.
  i.e. if you order archers to follow infantry, then order them to move just behind them, they'll try to keep that relative position whenever infantry moves. If you order them to move to far away hill, they stop following inf.
• F2 has enough space to fit stances (defensive, dynamic, defensive)
• F3 should remove shield wall and loose formation, as those are stances now, and can be applied to any kind of formation.
• F4 could cycle between "hold fire", "conserve ammo" and "fire at will". Or make it two-step command.

Whole suggestion is aimed at reducing unnecessary tedious babysitting micromanagement on the battlefield. Player shouldn't be required to repeatably tell their toddlers soldiers to rise the shields if enemy is shooting at them.

 

[Clausewitz123]

Yes please!

4. Each troop should have formation position ratio, based on his equipment. Shields increase it the more, the bigger they are. Weapons increase it, the longer they are. Those with higher ratio should go into the first line, while those with lower should stand behind.

I'd prefer 2-handed to stay behind shielded troops while idle and only go forward in formation while formation is engaged in melee.

5. Troops that don't move, have no enemies within melee range and don't shoot should crouch with shields up. In all formations - that's common sense.

I wouldn't like my men crouching without orders, I like to see them standing. I know it is better if they crouched more often so they are smaller targets for missiles, but this is my personal visual preference.

 

[CalenLoki]

I'd prefer 2-handed to stay behind shielded troops while idle and only go forward in formation while formation is engaged in melee.

Oh. My mistake. Of course I mean weapon length decrease it, pushing 2h and polearms to back lines.
Good catch.

I wouldn't like my men crouching without orders, I like to see them standing. I know it is better if they crouched more often so they are smaller targets for missiles, but this is my personal visual preference.

Main reason why I'd like them standing is to allow ranged units to shoot from behind them. It could be tied to stances (crouching only if you set to defensive. Or stand up only in aggressive) or their ranged weapon preferences ("hold fire" forces melee infantry to stand up).

I'll update first post.

 

[Rycon Caldestan]

Amazing post +1

 

[CalenLoki]

Some more ideas, mostly regarding formation AI:

Current health should affect position in formation as well, with wounded troops going into rear rows. It should also affect offence/defence ratio, with fresh troops being more aggressive. Maybe morale should do the same?

Position in formation should affect weapon choice (if troop has multiple melee weapons available). Those in first row should switch to shield if available, and those in back rows should switch to longer weapon. It means that group consisting of troops with exactly same loadout (i.e. shield+spear+sword) will switch to sword in the first row, and to spear in back rows.

I'll update first post.

 

[Prison Mike]

I'll start with a picture, and explain below


1. Change troop grouping to drag'n'drop, rather than clicking on the little banner. Just drag whatever troop you want to have in group 2, and drop it under it's mark in the troop list.

• Each group would show troop count (including wounded troops too).
• Ability to collapse group content would help organising big armies.
• Dragging group higher in the list should make it enter battle with higher priority (if battle size limit prevents spawning everyone).

2. Allow pre-battle setup of your groups:

• Type of a group. Just so commander knows what to shout. Infantry/archers/cavalry/horse archers/ect.
• Additional restrictions.
  • "!" next to group type automatically throws out anyone who don't have required equipment. So in our example, any horseman that looses it's horse swap to group 2.
  • Health restriction, so if soldier gets severely wounded, he'll switch to nearest available group (i.e. reserves or archers).
• Relative position at the start of the battle. In our example infantry will stand in front of all other groups, while cavalry wait behind on the left flank.
• Follow target (not pictured).
  • You can either set yourself (so they'll follow you from the start),
  • Other group (i.e. order archers to stay behind infantry)
  • Nothing (so relative position is just for battle start)
  • Reserve (they won't spawn on the battlefield unless you call them to battle by blowing a horn)
• Formation type. Line/column/wedge/circle/square/half-circle/ect.
• Stance determine how strictly troops will keep formation. It can be applied to any formation shape, and will affect both how they stand and how they move.
  • Defensive (shield icon) will make them static, like current shield wall.
    They'll stand in very tight formation.
    They'll also keep shields up and stay in formation when ordered to move.
  • Dynamic (shield + sword) will make them manoeuvre within 1-3m if enemy comes nearby, or if they need to pick up arrows/get better firing position.
    They'll stand with small gaps between them, so they have more freedom in melee.
    They'll try to keep some formation while moving, but much less strictly. They won't keep shields up to move faster, but they'll raise them if under fire.
  • Aggressive (sword) allows manoeuvring up to 5-20m if there is any enemy nearby.
    They'll stay in loose formation.
    They'll ignore formation and shield blocking during movement to go as fast as possible.
• Ranged weapon usage (not pictured): Fire at will/Conserve ammo (shoot/throw only if high chance to hit)/hold fire.

3. Troop position in formation should be relative to the troops right next to him, rather than to some distant group origin. That would help both combat efficiency (less formation breaking during manoeuvres) and immersion (line that waves looks much more real than perfectly straight one).

Example: Blue is group sergeant, group takes formation around him. But each troop position himself relatively to just one of his buddies (green arrows). Violet broke the line a bit (Maybe he has low tactical skill? Or maybe he moved forward to attack?). Pink guys followed him, as local formation cohesion is more important than keeping the long line straight.

4. Each troop should have formation position ratio, based on his equipment, current health and morale.

• Shields increase it the more, the bigger they are.
• Weapons decrease it, the longer they are (ranged weapons decrease it a lot).
• Health increase it.
• Morale increase it.
• Those with higher ratio should go into the first line, while those with lower should stand behind.

5. Troops that don't move, have no enemies within melee range and don't shoot or pick up arrows should crouch with shields up. In all formations.
They could be forced to stand up either by setting their stance to aggressive or by ordering them to hold fire.

6. Troops melee behaviour should depend on their position in formation, morale and health.

• Those in first line, if there is ally behind them, should be more defensive, prioritising blocking over attacking.
  They should also choose shield over other weapons, and shorter weapon over longer (if they have equipment choice, i.e. shield+sword+shield or shield+1h+2h).
• Those with ally in front of them should be more aggressive, prioritising attacking over blocking.
  They should also switch to longer weapon if they have the choice.
• If none of above is applicable (i.e. single line or no formation) they should balance attack and defence (which means - more blocking than currently).
• Troops that are wounded or have low morale should prioritise defence over offence.

7. Allow placing one group in relative position to other group.
I.e. infantry stand in front of archers. Whenever those archers are ordered to move somewhere, infantry will try to stay in front of them.

8. With all those changes player commands should change as well:

• Move to position works just like now.
  But if you press alt and click on friendly or enemy group icon, it should issue order "follow them" or "advance towards that group" respectively.
  If the target group get's destroyed, it should automatically switch to "stop" or "advance" respectively.
• Groups that are set to follow (either you or other group) will take movement orders close to followed unit as setting their relative position.
  Only move orders far away from the followed target will make them stop following them.
  i.e. if you order archers to follow infantry, then order them to move just behind them, they'll try to keep that relative position whenever infantry moves. If you order them to move to far away hill, they stop following inf.
• F2 has enough space to fit stances (defensive, dynamic, defensive)
• F3 should remove shield wall and loose formation, as those are stances now, and can be applied to any kind of formation.
• F4 could cycle between "hold fire", "conserve ammo" and "fire at will". Or make it two-step command.

Whole suggestion is aimed at reducing unnecessary tedious babysitting micromanagement on the battlefield. Player shouldn't be required to repeatably tell their toddlers soldiers to rise the shields if enemy is shooting at them.

By the GODS! this post is so important. first managing big armies is a pain! i like to keep my army menu organized (ocd kicks in) but i hate how i can only click and drag one singular unit at a time. ive been thinking of this gouping thing for quite a while now but you just put it masterfully. That idea of showing how many units you have on your army and how many wounded is really freaking good! now something thats also needs change is how grouping units under any of the roman numbers constantly kicks units from them. i have a few compannions that are archer and crossbowmen, i put them in the archer unit and every time i load the game they are all back to the infantry units.

Also a pikemen formation its really needed. horses are a very destructive unit, as they were in real life, so having this formation would really be a great counter. there are some units in this game that are rendered useless. the pike men have pikes for a reason and i hate that they never use them. there is no formation, like a spearwall or something like that. instead i have pikemen with my infantry and ussualy they are the first to go down beacause of their lack of shields, even high tier pike units. same with shock troops. there should also be a way to advance your whole army without making them charge at the enemy. in battles where you are the attacker usually you have to move against the enemy, while the enemy army waits. it suck that you have to ask your army to follow you so that when you are near the enemy then you start setting them up. moving the army as a whole its very important. when you give the advance command they are set to engage the enemy. so a way to get them to move in their current formation would be great, and as you put perfectly before, helps with the micro managing of the army.