Troops Evaluation

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Hi everyone!

I hope people share my concerns about troop's trees. And I hope devs are intended to revise it.

Here what I've got:

Battania :
Oathworn and Wildling are equal , what for ? Both have javelins , swords and polearms. Give Rhomphalia and 3 javelins to Wildling unit.
Falxman have falx which is effective , but Veteran Falxman have Rhomphalia which is a polearm. Why polearm ? They block each other's swings in tight formation. Rhomphalia can't hit multiple enemies as it is not 2 handed sword , it's a polearm. I'd rather have Veteran Falxman with falxes and Wildlings with Rhomphalias.
Mounted units are ok.
Noble units are deadly , as it should be.
Whole troop's tree is a bit messy.

Sturgia :
Whole troop's tree is well balanced , have no questions. May be archers are lame , but it's national trait, I guess.
Only one thing : Noble Druzhinnik, why I need bother to get this unit if I can get Hardened Brigand & Horse Raider more easily? Yes , Druzhinnik have better skills , but based on my experience, skills won't make big difference but Horse Raider's javelins will. Horse Raiders can charge and skirmish , Druzhinnik can only charge.

Aserai:
Tier 2 Tribesman and Mameluke soldier are same . Infantry with shields , one handed weapons and polearms.
Then ,before I get archer , I deal with skirmisher, and after this I get tier 4 mediocre archer. Not much sense in it.
At least Aserai have mounted archers , and they are really good units.
Palace Guards are good , except southern throwing axes , which make me laugh considering tier 4 & 5 units bear them. Get hit with this throwing axe will make me laugh , get hit with battanian woodland javelin will make me laugh last time in my life.
Noble cavalry units are really good , and these jareeds , oh boy.
Aserai have really good units , but these tier 2 infantry and lame archers what ? Counterweight ?

Vlandia:
Tier 2 Levy Crossbowman is good advantage. Whole crossbowman tree is good, bound x-bow is no joke , besides , they can do infantry work as well as they have good shields.
Then we go to see infantry, and yet again : tier 3 Spearman and Vlandian Infantry are same. Right branch with Sergeants and Cavalry is fine, but left brach with Voulgiers is odd: Billman is all right , but Voigier have voulg, javelin and two handed sword , and AI doesn't know how to use this kit , like charging horseman with two handed sword and bashind lotter with voulg. Pikeman is pure anti cavalry unit and this is fine.
Noble Knights are ok , but why bother ? I can get Gallants more easily. Looters will massacre both of them anyway. Banner Knight with green hood look funny.

Khuzait:
Whole troop's tree feels all right and well balanced.
Noble mounted archers look like improved regular mounted archers. Glaives make difference.

Empire:
Troop's tree is well balanced , I think it most balanced faction.
Only one thing : menavlions forget their menavlions and poke enemies with pilums.

Here what I see. Battanian troops are mess. Would be glad to read your thoughts.
 
I find that the crossbows in the Empire troop tree are misplaced and should be replaced with regular cav like the Equites and Heavy Horse and put a branch in the Empire Noble line to add Clibinarii and "heavy" bucellarii.

Battania feels like a mess - need archers in the regular troop line and the cav feels misplaced. I agree the Wildling/Falxman/Vet Falxman are confusing

Vlandia has too many cav units that end up all looking similar which isnt exactly encouraging. At least not until TW changes AI behavior profiles in a meaningful way to justify keeping Light and Heavy Cav separate
 

Nakh

Sergeant
Battanians don't have regular archer in tree. This is leads to party compositions like 100 infantry, 10 cavalry and 2 archers. This is laughable and get them massacred by player, usually with zero losses. If I chose to play for Battanians, I have to import crossbowmen from Empire or Vlandria. Solution - add regular archer tree.

Sturgians don't have level 2 archers and their armies after first defeat looks exactly same, mass of infantry. Again, easy pickings with zero danger to any somewhat capable player. At least as player I have access to subpar regular archers there. Solution - make woodsman's into archers?

Empire units is good, cavalry have to be imported though, so I usually have wild mix of strike cavalry units, recruited from prisoner pool. As result empire lords have few, like 5-6, horse archers and strike cavalry, both useless because of small soldier count. Still very vulnerable to archer heavy player armies. Solution - make cavalry recruits spawn more?

Vlandrians and Aserai have OK party compositions, they pose at least some threat to equally numbered player party and usually can't be dealt with little to no losses.

And Khuzaits as always most dangerous and unfun enemy to play against, their masses of cavalry turn every encounter in bloody mess with inevitable heavy losses. I just auto-resolve them mostly, because this fights really un-enjoyable. I can't think of good solution there.
 
I agree with you assessment but I have a couple addons.
Empire:
Troop's tree is well balanced , I think it most balanced faction.
One thing seems overlooked often is their archer line only has 1 stack of arrows, This changed a some point and it was big downgrade IMO. I think they should give them back, all primary archer units should have 2 stacks. Yes it won't matter unless you're fighting larger force and really need all the ammo for a long fight. You can retreat to refill but then you lose loot and troops exp :sad:
I like their Cavalry, even though Cav is not good offensively these more durable ones are a great help with 'crowd control' if handled by the player and be quickly parked in front of ranged units and put in SW and probably outlast whatever is coming at them.
Khuzait:
Whole troop's tree feels all right and well balanced.
I agree and I want to add on that the t2 infantry is really durable in SW. They last much longer against archer fire then most other t2 infantry, big shields.
And of course only faction with low tier horse archers, gives great advantage of map speed and fast positioning n battle. I think Khuzait are the gold standard and they should enhance the other factions to meet them. Improve their specialty troops and culture bonus to equal Khuzaits, not de-power khuzaits.

Then ,before I get archer , I deal with skirmisher, and after this I get tier 4 mediocre archer. Not much sense in it.
Yeah only having t4-5 archers is a bit of a problem, especially from a player forces consideration. For garrisons having multiple t2-3 archers is much more powerful then 1 more expensive and the effort to make them is much much more then archers that branch of at t2. Of course in actual performance they've very good.
 
I agree. And if it weren't for fians, people would be rioting about their troop tree.
Fians are only troops I need playing as battanian ,and this is not how it should be.

I find that the crossbows in the Empire troop tree are misplaced and should be replaced with regular cav like the Equites and Heavy Horse and put a branch in the Empire Noble line to add Clibinarii and "heavy" bucellarii
And vlandian crossbowman is better than empire crossbowman. But it's ok , kinda I can choose between crossbowman and archer.
Battanians don't have regular archer in tree. This is leads to party compositions like 100 infantry, 10 cavalry and 2 archers. This is laughable and get them massacred by player, usually with zero losses
Easy target , because ai lord don't bother to collect too many fians . Whole troop tree is mess indeed.
Sturgians don't have level 2 archers and their armies after first defeat looks exactly same, mass of infantry
Same like Aserai.
Vlandrians and Aserai have OK party compositions, they pose at least some threat to equally numbered player party and usually can't be dealt with little to no losses.
Don't agree about Aserai , archer is t4 . T2 units are infantry. At least they have good cavalry.
One thing seems overlooked often is their archer line only has 1 stack of arrows, This changed a some point and it was big downgrade IMO
Once I was drawing enemy on me via archers cuz I was avoiding losses, and suddenly I run out of arrows, and they were fians. Had no choice to charge. Additional stack of arrows can make a difference.
 

Tawny

Regular
And Khuzaits as always most dangerous and unfun enemy to play against, their masses of cavalry turn every encounter in bloody mess with inevitable heavy losses. I just auto-resolve them mostly, because this fights really un-enjoyable. I can't think of good solution there.
A good chunk of pikemen in the archer formations works well (Tercio style). Use a loose square formation (F2 - F5, F2 - F3) and make sure it is a square, not a rectangle, as that will make them shuffle to face the enemy rather than pivot on the spot.

Glad the single quiver on the palatines were pointed out, that seems so out of place. Regarding the wildlings vs oathsworn, I wish the skirmishers had more ammo and maybe no shield even (for more ammo).

The lack of nobles in armies seems to come from the recruitment system where the AI hoovers up recruits rather than wait for them to "become" nobles. I hope the system gets revised so that the recruits start as nobles, so the AI can field them.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant
Battanians don't have regular archer in tree. This is leads to party compositions like 100 infantry, 10 cavalry and 2 archers. This is laughable and get them massacred by player, usually with zero losses. If I chose to play for Battanians, I have to import crossbowmen from Empire or Vlandria. Solution - add regular archer tree.
I tend to find that their fians and nobles almost make up for the lack of other archers. 10 FIans and a noble on the field can do the damage of 20 or 30 imperial archers.

That aside... I agree with the Wildling/Oathsworn overlap being odd. Wildlings are the top of the skirmisher tree. They are good as they are. Oathsworn probably shouldn't have missiles
 
Eh, Rhomphaia are pretty damn good as weapons if you know how to actually maximise their effect. I wouldn't want them removed from Vet Falxmen at all.

I do think Wildlings and Oathsworn are way too similar. Imo, Oathsworn should have their javelins replaced with a single throwing spear, or maybe throwing axes. Wildlings should instead have a second stack of javelins, or maybe just a single throwing spear. That way, you actually get a meaningful difference between them.

Common archers absolutely make sense for Battania and its wacky that the 'archer' faction doesn't get them.

I think Sturgia's Druzhinniks should have the warrazors that the old Sturgian Shock Troopers (RIP) used to have. That will give them a very different style to other faction shock cavalry. They won't hit as hard on a charge, but instead reap bloody swathes in a pressed melee. A big two handed axe could work too.

Now to elaborate more...

Battanians don't have regular archer in tree. This is leads to party compositions like 100 infantry, 10 cavalry and 2 archers. This is laughable and get them massacred by player, usually with zero losses. If I chose to play for Battanians, I have to import crossbowmen from Empire or Vlandria. Solution - add regular archer tree.
On the contrary, what happens to Battania is that they can end up with a party composition not unlike the Khuzaits due to the abundance of cavalry in their troop tree (not to mention AI cheats with horses). The result gives them the potential to snowball if left to build up their armies due to the autocalc advantage.

Actually fighting them on the field however is both bizarre and easy. The amount of horsemen they'll throw at you is completely immersion breaking and once things like equipment and actual stats matter, their cavalry is not very good at all, so its not hard to deal with. Its a mess, but I'm not sure if I would want to turn their cavalry into nobles. I'd do what my mod does and just add extended noble troop trees.

On a similar vein, I don't get the praise for Empire, or the Khuzaits. I've come to realise they aren't all that balanced now because of their difference in cavalry. The Empire barely get any, and the result shows when the Khuzaits start to roll into their lands. The Khuzaits have way too much cavalry, which is literal cause of their over dominance.

The fact that TW's solution of just adding more cavalry to all faction compositions to reduce Khuzait dominance is incredibly lazy.

I agree and I want to add on that the t2 infantry is really durable in SW. They last much longer against archer fire then most other t2 infantry, big shields.
And of course only faction with low tier horse archers, gives great advantage of map speed and fast positioning n battle. I think Khuzait are the gold standard and they should enhance the other factions to meet them. Improve their specialty troops and culture bonus to equal Khuzaits, not de-power khuzaits.

'Empowering' other factions to meet Khuzait standards is not going to stop them from dominating the map at all. A big change to autocalc, an actual nerf to their overabundance of cavalry in their troop tree, or maybe removing AI horse cheats would make an actual difference. But this vague idea of just 'enhancing' everyone else just won't cut it.

I don't see the harm in relegating their horse archers to tier 3. They'll still get them faster than everyone else, and you'll also reduce their absurd dominance. Of course, don't do what I did with my mod and keep their tier 2s as cavalry (they still dominate autocalc that way).

Sturgians don't have level 2 archers and their armies after first defeat looks exactly same, mass of infantry. Again, easy pickings with zero danger to any somewhat capable player. At least as player I have access to subpar regular archers there. Solution - make woodsman's into archers?

Empire units is good, cavalry have to be imported though, so I usually have wild mix of strike cavalry units, recruited from prisoner pool. As result empire lords have few, like 5-6, horse archers and strike cavalry, both useless because of small soldier count. Still very vulnerable to archer heavy player armies. Solution - make cavalry recruits spawn more?
To be fair, there aren't many factions with reliable access to tier 2 archers. And I don't think it would make sense either. Kind of looks daft for javelin troops to come from archers after all.

I would probably just swap crossbowmen out for horsemen for the Empire. Maybe relegate Empire Crossbowmen to militia or something, that's just about the only place you'd want them, if you could actually choose between archers and crossbowmen.

As for the single quiver issue of the Palatine Guard, yeah. I would want them to have an extra quiver, but only if they lose their 160 bow skill. One of the only good things about Aserai Master Archers was their high bow skill relative to everyone else. Not sure why the Empire's archers deserve that too, considering they're much easier to train, while being incredibly well armoured.
 

Bluko88

Regular
Battania :
Oathworn and Wildling are equal , what for ? Both have javelins , swords and polearms. Give Rhomphalia and 3 javelins to Wildling unit.
Falxman have falx which is effective , but Veteran Falxman have Rhomphalia which is a polearm. Why polearm ? They block each other's swings in tight formation. Rhomphalia can't hit multiple enemies as it is not 2 handed sword , it's a polearm. I'd rather have Veteran Falxman with falxes and Wildlings with Rhomphalias.

Whole troop's tree is a bit messy.
Yeah, Oathsworn are kind of pointless. Suppose you get shields earlier with that line, but still. Veteran Falxmen are pretty deadly, but they should probably have an an actual Falx.

Agree Battania needs serious rework.

Sturgia :
Whole troop's tree is well balanced , have no questions. May be archers are lame , but it's national trait, I guess.
Only one thing : Noble Druzhinnik, why I need bother to get this unit if I can get Hardened Brigand & Horse Raider more easily? Yes , Druzhinnik have better skills , but based on my experience, skills won't make big difference but Horse Raider's javelins will. Horse Raiders can charge and skirmish , Druzhinnik can only charge.
Agree again, I think they buffed Veteran Archer bows so they should be good. Don't get the point of Druzhinnik, but what else would Sturgia get for Elite Line?

Aserai:
Tier 2 Tribesman and Mameluke soldier are same . Infantry with shields , one handed weapons and polearms.

Noble cavalry units are really good , and these jareeds , oh boy.
Aserai have really good units , but these tier 2 infantry and lame archers what ? Counterweight ?
Yeah having two identical Tier 2 Troops units makes no sense. Tree is okay (not sure why Mamelukes go from Ranged Calvary to Melee though). Fix Tier 2 and all will be well.

I think something is bugged with first Archer unit - their range doesn't seem to be working or something.

Vlandia:
Tier 2 Levy Crossbowman is good advantage. Whole crossbowman tree is good, bound x-bow is no joke , besides , they can do infantry work as well as they have good shields.
Then we go to see infantry, and yet again : tier 3 Spearman and Vlandian Infantry are same. Right branch with Sergeants and Cavalry is fine, but left brach with Voulgiers is odd: Billman is all right , but Voigier have voulg, javelin and two handed sword , and AI doesn't know how to use this kit , like charging horseman with two handed sword and bashind lotter with voulg. Pikeman is pure anti cavalry unit and this is fine.
Noble Knights are ok , but why bother ? I can get Gallants more easily. Looters will massacre both of them anyway. Banner Knight with green hood look funny.
Yep once again near identical units in tree for some odd reason.

I think they should nerf the Light Calvary line a bit and remove their shields. Then there will be tangible difference between the regular Calvary line and Elite Calvary line.

Khuzait:
Whole troop's tree feels all right and well balanced.
Noble mounted archers look like improved regular mounted archers. Glaives make difference.
Khuzait is basically perfect. My only complaint is I'm not sure Darkhans should have the face mask, should probably just be for Khan's Guard. Minor personal quibble though.

Empire:
Troop's tree is well balanced , I think it most balanced faction.
Only one thing : menavlions forget their menavlions and poke enemies with pilums.
It's alright as is. Never see much point for Menvaltions and Bucellarii though. Bucellarii are well armored, but they just can't seem to kill anything really on horseback - though I guess they have more arrows then Palantines.

Menvaltions aren't horrible, but Legionaries are just generally better overall.
 
'Empowering' other factions to meet Khuzait standards is not going to stop them from dominating the map at all. A big change to autocalc, an actual nerf to their overabundance of cavalry in their troop tree, or maybe removing AI horse cheats would make an actual difference. But this vague idea of just 'enhancing' everyone else just won't cut it.
They already stop'd them via snowballing fixes, as far as I've seen unless they player joins the Khuzait they don't expand with nearly as much success now.
I'm saying a gold standard for a troop tree that's 'good', which is what I read this topic to be about.
 
It's alright as is. Never see much point for Menvaltions and Bucellarii though. Bucellarii are well armored, but they just can't seem to kill anything really on horseback - though I guess they have more arrows then Palantines.

Menvaltions aren't horrible, but Legionaries are just generally better overall.
Bucellarii are just kind of meh. I'd say give them a lance or something so they could feel more unique among the other horse archers.

Menavliatons seem to work best as a form of shock troop, but the problem is they don't ever seem to whip out their menavliatons. Doesn't help their armour seemed to have nerfed too. They're just lacking now.

Khuzait is basically perfect. My only complaint is I'm not sure Darkhans should have the face mask, should probably just be for Khan's Guard. Minor personal quibble though.
No, they look cool. Don't take it from them.

They already stop'd them via snowballing fixes, as far as I've seen unless they player joins the Khuzait they don't expand with nearly as much success now.
I'm saying a gold standard for a troop tree that's 'good', which is what I read this topic to be about.
I haven't been keeping up as much as I should, but from what I've heard, they've just given everyone else more cavalry? Not a fan of that solution, doesn't actually address the issue.

I'm still curious about how one could make every other troop tree as 'good' as the Khuzaits without just giving everyone more cavalry choices. I still don't think they should have tier 2 cavalry at all. Or at the very least, not tier 2 horse archers.
 
They already stop'd them via snowballing fixes, as far as I've seen unless they player joins the Khuzait they don't expand with nearly as much success now.
I'm saying a gold standard for a troop tree that's 'good', which is what I read this topic to be about.
in my current game they've just wiped the northern empire and are beating up the western one now. While everyone else still have their starting territories +/- a few castles
well except for the southern empire who the khuzaits have taken about half of too...
they are still insane
 
Eh, Rhomphaia are pretty damn good as weapons if you know how to actually maximise their effect. I wouldn't want them removed from Vet Falxmen at all.
No , just give rhomphalia to other unit. Rhomphalia and 3 javelins , no shield. I'd rather have vet. falxman have falx and wildling have rhomphalia.

Don't get the point of Druzhinnik, but what else would Sturgia get for Elite Line?
My point is druzhinnik doesn't have javelin, but horse rider does. Horse raider can do druzhinnik's job but druzhinnik can't do horse rider's job. So I better get horse raider instead of druzhinnik.
 
No , just give rhomphalia to other unit. Rhomphalia and 3 javelins , no shield. I'd rather have vet. falxman have falx and wildling have rhomphalia.


My point is druzhinnik doesn't have javelin, but horse rider does. Horse raider can do druzhinnik's job but druzhinnik can't do horse rider's job. So I better get horse raider instead of druzhinnik.
That just makes the Wildling a vastly stronger unit than the vet falxman. They'd be superior shock troopers and skirmishers. And triple stacks of javelins will look ridiculous. I think you vastly underestimate how good rhomphaias are.

Just curious, but what about the idea of giving Druzhinniks glaives or two handed axes instead? More melee oomph that way.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
I haven't been keeping up as much as I should, but from what I've heard, they've just given everyone else more cavalry? Not a fan of that solution, doesn't actually address the issue.
That was (or is, rather) an on-going secondary fix. The biggest thing was chopping down the Cavalry map speed bonus to 40% (from 60%). Right now mexxico is of the opinion that things are probably a little bit too stable for an interesting variance between playthroughs.
 

vota dc

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
Hi everyone!

I hope people share my concerns about troop's trees. And I hope devs are intended to revise it.

Here what I've got:

Battania :
Oathworn and Wildling are equal , what for ? Both have javelins , swords and polearms. Give Rhomphalia and 3 javelins to Wildling unit.
Falxman have falx which is effective , but Veteran Falxman have Rhomphalia which is a polearm. Why polearm ? They block each other's swings in tight formation. Rhomphalia can't hit multiple enemies as it is not 2 handed sword , it's a polearm. I'd rather have Veteran Falxman with falxes and Wildlings with Rhomphalias.
Mounted units are ok.
Noble units are deadly , as it should be.
Whole troop's tree is a bit messy.

Sturgia :
Whole troop's tree is well balanced , have no questions. May be archers are lame , but it's national trait, I guess.
Only one thing : Noble Druzhinnik, why I need bother to get this unit if I can get Hardened Brigand & Horse Raider more easily? Yes , Druzhinnik have better skills , but based on my experience, skills won't make big difference but Horse Raider's javelins will. Horse Raiders can charge and skirmish , Druzhinnik can only charge.

Aserai:
Tier 2 Tribesman and Mameluke soldier are same . Infantry with shields , one handed weapons and polearms.
Then ,before I get archer , I deal with skirmisher, and after this I get tier 4 mediocre archer. Not much sense in it.
At least Aserai have mounted archers , and they are really good units.
Palace Guards are good , except southern throwing axes , which make me laugh considering tier 4 & 5 units bear them. Get hit with this throwing axe will make me laugh , get hit with battanian woodland javelin will make me laugh last time in my life.
Noble cavalry units are really good , and these jareeds , oh boy.
Aserai have really good units , but these tier 2 infantry and lame archers what ? Counterweight ?

Vlandia:
Tier 2 Levy Crossbowman is good advantage. Whole crossbowman tree is good, bound x-bow is no joke , besides , they can do infantry work as well as they have good shields.
Then we go to see infantry, and yet again : tier 3 Spearman and Vlandian Infantry are same. Right branch with Sergeants and Cavalry is fine, but left brach with Voulgiers is odd: Billman is all right , but Voigier have voulg, javelin and two handed sword , and AI doesn't know how to use this kit , like charging horseman with two handed sword and bashind lotter with voulg. Pikeman is pure anti cavalry unit and this is fine.
Noble Knights are ok , but why bother ? I can get Gallants more easily. Looters will massacre both of them anyway. Banner Knight with green hood look funny.

Khuzait:
Whole troop's tree feels all right and well balanced.
Noble mounted archers look like improved regular mounted archers. Glaives make difference.

Empire:
Troop's tree is well balanced , I think it most balanced faction.
Only one thing : menavlions forget their menavlions and poke enemies with pilums.

Here what I see. Battanian troops are mess. Would be glad to read your thoughts.
If you give wildling two handed polearms they won't have shields when they don't use their javelins. Battania has less firepower I think that can be fixed removing one of the two cavalry paths and merging them and replacing with commoner Archer. Battania commoner Archer could be like mirkwood archers in TLD that have great bow skills but only a knife.

Druzs could have a bow and be slower than other ranged cavalry becoming effective only against infantry in range and forced to melee against others.

Vlandia should have pike and two handed swords in 2 different troops.
 
That was (or is, rather) an on-going secondary fix. The biggest thing was chopping down the Cavalry map speed bonus to 40% (from 60%). Right now mexxico is of the opinion that things are probably a little bit too stable for an interesting variance between playthroughs.
except the khuzaits still obliterate anyone they fight. And personally i want it to be very stable so i can LONG campaigns with multiple generations.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant
in my current game they've just wiped the northern empire and are beating up the western one now. While everyone else still have their starting territories +/- a few castles
well except for the southern empire who the khuzaits have taken about half of too...
they are still insane
They've been pretty thoroughly balanced. I haven't seen a Khuzait snowball in 2 or 3 updates.

In fact, I've seen them lose half their territory to the Asari and the Northern Empire in one playthrough. In my current game, they managed to expand into the Southern Empire, but lost all the cities they gained to rebellions - and those cities are now mine.

What you will find though, is like butterflies in Africa, player interactions can cause one faction or another to snowball by weakening their neighbours beyond what they're balanced for, and that might coincidentally be the Khuzaits sometimes, other times it might be Battanian or Vlandia or whoever. But because we've all been primed to think the Khuzaits always snowball, it doesn't take much for that cognitive bias to be confirmed when they do coincidentally take off...

Give it long enough and you might find they get beaten back in your playthrough as well. If they pass Debasement of The Currency you'll see their cities flip like it's going out of fashion.
 
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