Troop test project (Suprising results!) [Berserk and hired blade update]

[Kegeyn]

Btw, can ulfhendars beat any t5 infantry in melee? Right now i am not sure they can beat even t5 archers in melee.

It is not as simple of a question as one might think. Ulf's as most 2h infantry can one hit most units on headshot. Problem is that other units can easily 1 hit them on headshot with 1 handers as well (similar issue that aserai veteran warriors have). However the main reason they perform worse even than aserai veterans is 1. having worse throwing weapons, 2. almost no chest armor so they will get killed in 1 hit via 2 hander, lance strike, crossbow bolt etc, or by 2 hits to the chest with basically any weapon.

I will add t4 berserkers to the list for comparison but initial tests show that they perform singificantly better than ulfs but slightly worse that other t5 2h infantry. (which actually seems fine balance - wise as they are 1 tier lower)

 

[Maximum997]

It is not as simple of a question as one might think.

Yes, thats why i want to see some test.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

What if you used Oathsworn? Statistically, they have worse armour than Wildlings for whatever reason, but their helmets are really good. I hope TW fixes them up a bit, feels wrong for an infantry heavy faction to not at least have capable spear men.

 

[obidijus]

How about varjag?Or sturgian cavarly?

 

[lconracl]

@Kegeyn This tool may help you to find some correlations

Bannerlord Barracks

Application to view Bannerlord's troops, items and crafting pieces in a table format.

www.nexusmods.com

 

[Kegeyn]

Thanks for Bannerlord barracks link - definitely helps in armor/weapon checking

Tested berserkers and added their results - seem MUCH stronger than their t5

Archer result need logic check, will finish and publish max on friday.

Started cavalry test however i cant find infantry army that would not crush them on even odds (yes current cav state is this bad) unless you heavily micro manage them

Tested spear troops will not publish due to current game state

@Everyone At the moment testing any "spear" troop is useless. Both vlandian spearmen and Battanian Oathsworn get instantly killed as soon as they switch to spears because of its clunkyness and low damage (and i mean really crushing defeats here).

Only exception is nonspear polearm infantry - Like Imperial 2h ones or sturgian shock troop - those things can perform but still are weaker than pure 2h due to slower weapon swings

I looked how top performing infantry attacks and i am seeing a lot of overhead strikes with weapons that have potential to 1 shot if unblocked. That explains shock troops, veteran warriors and Aserai 2h warriors result

 

[Bannerman Man]

@Kegeyn Would you mind including the mercenary troop tree (Watchman line) in your tests? Considering they are available to all it would be interesting to see how they stack up. Their IDs = mercenary_#.

 

[Kegeyn]

@Kegeyn Would you mind including the mercenary troop tree (Watchman line) in your tests? Considering they are available to all it would be interesting to see how they stack up. Their IDs = mercenary_#.

Was a tricky one because their id's are not on the main lists.
Added hired blades. Due to their results i did insert them into minor faction spoiler tab.

Also thank you man for the idea! Now i know what is the problem - swords. Their swings have long and wide animations and they have big glancing hit (those 1-2 dmg) zones. Everyone should remember the cursed days when we get sword duel with an armored guy in arena right? Swords have no armor piercing (except thrust which makes it piercing) and AI almost never does sword overhead.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Also thank you man for the idea! Now i know what is the problem - swords. Their swings have long animations and they have big glancing hit (those 1-2 dmg) zones. Everyone should remember the cursed days when we get sword duel with an armored guy right? Swords have no armor piercing (except thrust which makes it piercing) and AI almost never does sword overhead.

Thanks for the tests! I figured they would be pretty bad, but that's worse than I expected. Their armor is also subpar. Their Hauberks and Shields are good quality, but everything else is awful. Scarves and no gloves haha.

If you investigate that barracks mod, it might be interesting to give the weapons of the best performing troops to the worst troops to see how that affects the outcomes. Especially since you say the swords appear to be the biggest problem.

 

[Kegeyn]

I will not do it on main page but that was interesting test idea!

I swapped their swords with 1h axe - they still died but more in line with other minor factions (most likely athletics / weapon skill and low armor difference)

HOWEVER
I gave them shock troops warrazors and this happened

Now thinking about it - Can someone remind me why shock troop even needs 1h? And why they are not Sturgia's top tier in 2h? Seems like a more fitting choice ;d

Also i tested Vlandian voulgiers that were underperforming before. Now i checked - they have a sword in their inventory that some of them used!
So i removed that ugly sword for all, and changed 2/3 loadouts with aserai mameluke palace guard 2h axe.
They instantly became top tier contender

 

[Bannerman Man]

Wow, interesting! Weapons make all the difference. Perhaps weapons like the Executioner's Axe and Warrazor should be toned down a bit haha. A simple weapon swap can make a poor unit into a good unit.

Now that makes me wonder what 200 recruits would do with either of the above two mentioned weapons in hand.

 

[Badcritter]

I remember in another discussion someone was asking what the point of axes was, and I brought up their ability to break shields easily. I speculated that contributed to axe wielders being the best infantry in Warband, but I doubted it would be as important in Bannerlord since shields take so long to break in general.

Do you pay close enough attention during your tests to be able to judge if shield breakage is a factor that helps explain the high performance of axes?

 

[Helstrom]

Very cool, thanks for the testing!

 

[Kegeyn]

Now that makes me wonder what 200 recruits would do with either of the above two mentioned weapons in hand.

200 is overkill,

tested 100 recruits and it was 30% win 70% slight loss with warrazor

130 recruits get the win consistently

Oh and i did not change their polearm skill (20) and forgot during recruit tests to turn off "armor does something" mod. Well it seems armor still NOT does something ;p

Do you pay close enough attention during your tests to be able to judge if shield breakage is a factor that helps explain the high performance of axes?

Yes i watch most of them in spectator as my character is outside of battle not to interfere.
So shieldbreak with 2h axes is a factor that lets you have results like the ones i show in this topic
It takes 4 solid hits to take a high tier shield with 2h axe so not alot if you count constant swings. Once shielded infantry formation breaks they get chopped quickly (even sturgia)

 

[Bannerman Man]

tested 100 recruits and it was 30% win 70% slight loss with warrazor

130 recruits get the win consistently

I think we've found our solution to the troop balancing issue then. Just give every troop a Warrazor. It's a horse archer? Doesn't matter, give 'em a warrazor. Crossbowman? More like Warrazorman. Recruits? They get two warrazors. Even peasants can use warrazors to harvest their crops.

It's so simple, yet elegant.

 

[artemis_entreri]

Thanks for this, really appreciate you posting. I was using sturgian zerkers and battanian falxman primarily thinking that they would decimate troops. It is great to seem some testing.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Tested spear troops will not publish due to current game state

@Everyone At the moment testing any "spear" troop is useless. Both vlandian spearmen and Battanian Oathsworn get instantly killed as soon as they switch to spears because of its clunkyness and low damage (and i mean really crushing defeats here).

Makes me wonder if that contributes to why Wildlings, Legionaries and Veteran Infantry lose as well, seeing as they rock spears. Not sure what the darkhan how doing better though, seeing as they have a similar loadout.

 

[Kegeyn]

As an excel slave at work i can show you why some troops are performing using a magic of raw data turned into a table form!
EDIT:
Scratch previous logic, in general i think its ok'ish but i got some anomalies i need to look
Right now things i am 100% sure:
(+) Removing spear from inventory increases performance
(+) Having throwing weapon increases performance
(+) Having 1h axe slightly increases performance
(++) Having Javelin strongly increases performance
(++) Using 2h strongly increases performance

(-) Having sword in inventory reduces performance (i think slightly)
(-) low armor reduces performance
(--) Having spear and sword in inventory strongly reduces performance


Now think of it as a game - each black (for me, for you on forum its white) item is 0,5 each red is -1 and each green is +1 and compare results to the test results (i will rework this model but as initial thought excercise it is somewhat ok)

​

Row Labels​	Item1​	Item2​	Item3​	Item4​
Aserai Veteran Infantry​	Fine Steel Long Kaskara​	Fine Steel Leaf Spear​	Wooden Adarga​	Eastern Javelin​
Battanian Wildling 1​	One Handed Bearded Axe​	Long Fine Steel Spear​	Heavy Round Shield​	Hooked Javelin​
Battanian Wildling 2​	One Handed Bearded Axe​	Long Fine Steel Spear​	Reinforced Oval Shield​	Throwing Axe OR Hooked Javelin​
Imperial Legionary 1​	Calradic Mace​	Pila​	Studded Kite Shield​	​
Imperial Legionary 2​	Fine Steel Paramerion​	Pila​	Fortified Kite Shield​	​
Khuzait Darkhan​	Heavy Sabre​	Fine Steel Leaf Spear​	Eastern Cavalry Shield​	Eastern Javelin​
Triarii1​	Fine Steel Paramerion​	Pila​	Oaken Kite Shield​	​
Triarii2​	Fine Steel Spatha​	Pila​	Oaken Kite Shield​	​
Sturgian Veteran Troop​	Veteran Warriors Axe​	​	Heavy Round Shield​	Broad blade Javelin​

 

[9yearsago]

So 2H nfantry was far better and useful than I thought. Thanks for your effort.

 

[Mastigos]

There's almost a unanimous consensus among the forums and players that spears dont work in vanilla when its infantry vs infantry. The collision is way too tight and the thrust mechanics are broken. Spear infantry quickly switch to sidearms and then use the overhead attack to clip through the collision.

That "unanimous consensus" is the result of literal spear fanboys (god, who knew such a thing existed before this?) crying about how "weak" spears are, when the reality is that spears are not weak in Bannerlord at all.

They vocal minority of spear-worshippers simply want spears to be the best weapon in every category, as that would mesh with their fanfiction view of IRL history.

I know this sounds insane to a normal Bannerlord player, but these trolls really do exist, they really do think spears deserve to be the best weapon in the game, and they ignore or downplay any objective data which contradicts their views -- all while quoting cherry-picked medieval weapon instructors out of context.