Troop Overhaul

[IamDuddits]

I decided to go through and change around the troop stats so that their skills and stats match their actual levels.  I also adjusted proficiencies so that they make more sense with respect to their stats.  I made this for my own use but thought I'd share it since so many seem to be irritated with Rhodoks and other troops.  I only changed faction soldiers.

I also made a few other changes:

-Gave Huscarls a chance to get Long Bows
-I took away Rhodok Spearman's shields (They perform better in combat with the ability to side and overhead swing the spear)
-Rhodok Crossbow tree goes Trained-Veteran-Sharpshooter now instead of Trained-Sharpshooter.

I'd welcome any comments to anyone who is interested in a change.

You can download the text at this link: http://www.uploading.com/files/H3U1Q4CL/troops.txt.html

 

[Red River]

I decided to go through and change around the troop stats so that their skills and stats match their actual levels.  I also adjusted proficiencies so that they make more sense with respect to their stats.  I made this for my own use but thought I'd share it since so many seem to be irritated with Rhodoks and other troops.  I only changed faction soldiers.

I also made a few other changes:

-Gave Huscarls a chance to get Long Bows
-I took away Rhodok Spearman's shields (They perform better in combat with the ability to side and overhead swing the spear)
-Rhodok Crossbow tree goes Trained-Veteran-Sharpshooter now instead of Trained-Sharpshooter.

I'd welcome any comments to anyone who is interested in a change.

You can download the text at this link: http://www.uploading.com/files/H3U1Q4CL/troops.txt.html

I would get rid of the word Trained for veterans.. too lon' and kinda redundant... keep up good work!

 

[IamDuddits]

I apologize, they Trained-Veteran-Sharpshooter isn't an upgrade of Sharpshooter.  What I meant was instead of upgrading from a Crossbowman->Trained Crossbowman->Sharpshooter, now it's Crossbowman->Trained Crossbowman->Veteran Crossbowman->Sharpshooters. 

And thank you!!  Hopefully it's an improvement.

 

[Shik]

No shields? Wouldn't that make them even more susceptible to arrows?

Wouldn't it just be better to overhaul the stats and increase spear damage?

 

[IamDuddits]

No shields? Wouldn't that make them even more susceptible to arrows?

Wouldn't it just be better to overhaul the stats and increase spear damage?

How do you increase item damage.  I didn't really like the idea of taking shields away because, as you said, they get raped by arrows.  The problem is though once they get up close to anything they get pretty much raped because Thrusting a spear doesn't do **** (literally 0 damage but I'm sure you knew that).  Giving them no shield at least lets them swing for blunt damage.  If you could tell me how to change item stats I'd definitely do that.

I used Unofficial troop editor, so is there an item editor some place too that alluded me?

 

[Shik]

yeah, there's a unofficial item editor in the same section of the forum. Unofficial editing tools.

 

[IamDuddits]

Ok cool.  When I think Spearman I usually think of what the Rhodoks look like, a wall of dudes with big pointy stick and massive shields.  Unfortunately they don't form a wall, and like an Ancient Greek Phalanx, if they don't stand as one then they completely fall apart. 

I was thinking, though, maybe keep them shieldless but give them an armor upgrade?  Their armor really does blow compared to just about any other infantry.  Their armor is roughly on par with most other factions Archer line.

 

[Shik]

Nah, their tower shields are sort of part of their identity.


Better armor wouldn't hurt though.

Just give the trained spearmen leather and ragged outfits along with their padded cloth, and have the veteran spearmen use all byrnies, and give them weak helmets (but still better than leather cap) like a skullcap? Segmented helmet? Something like that.
Clubs used by veterans should be gone as well.

Rhodok sergeants currently use byrnies as well, I suppose to reduce redundancy you could give them lamellar cuirass as well. No troop uses it, and it provides good protection.

 

[IamDuddits]

I did something like this:

Tribesman and Spearman I left the same, they are fine for their tier in terms of equipment.

Trained: Got rid of Gambeson and Leather Vest and gave them Padded Leather along with Padded Clothe.  I gave them a Skull Cap as well and Leather Boot as an upgrade from the nomad boots.

Vets:  Kept the Byrnie and gave them Mail Shirt as well.  Mail Coif and Kettle Hat seemed like a nice match

Srgeants: Kept their Armor he same, got rid of spiked helm and kettle hat and gave them Bascinet instead to go with Guard Helm, mostly for variety.  The Spiked and Kettle didn't seem to fit with the Guard helm which was clearly superior.

I also gave them all back their shields.  I adjusted their weapons a bit as well.  None of them get Pikes anymore.  Way too slow, which is a problem for them and the fact that they are all two-handed, I think.

Weapons:

Tribesman: Unchanged
Spearman: All get Shortened Spears
Trained: Shortened or Regular Spears
Vets: Regular or War Spear
Sergeants: Glaive, Poleaxe, or War Spear.  (I know that Glaive and Poleaxe are both two handed, but I figure it'll give them more power and the backside shield + the better armor would make up for the lack of a front shield.  War Spear for variety.)

I haven't gotten around to changing Item stats yet, and I'm not really sure where to start on that part.  To me it seems the problem isn't the damage the spear does but more that the spear is useless once the enemy gets right in your face.  My only logic for that would seem to give them a very high Athletics to help them out.

Currently my main help for Rhodok in this category is their Crossbowman.  The way I balanced them out, the Crossbowman are pretty solid Melee Soldiers.  My logic here was to make an inverse of the Nord troop line (rather than having Heavy Infantry that double up as mediocre Archers I gave them decent archers that double up as Mediocre infantry). 

I don't think this is such a bad idea because I really don't think Rhodok Spearman should own Infantry, they should own cavalry.  But that begs the question of how to deal with infantry, which is what I hope to accomplish with the Crossbowman.  Weaken them up from range and finish them off when they close in.  When I make some noticeable progress I'll upload a new troop.txt if you are interested.

 

[Shik]

Err, pike is one handed.

It's awlpike and ashwood pike that are two handed.

 

[IamDuddits]

Err, pike is one handed.

It's awlpike and ashwood pike that are two handed.

Ok.  Those last two suck so bad.  Illogical for a two-handed pike to be shorter, slower, weaker, and more expensive than a one-handed pike.

Out of curiosity, how bad is the penalty for wield a one-handed polearm with a shield?  I know that you are limited to only thrusts, but is there a speed and damage reduction too?

 

[Shik]

The answer is yes, 25% speed and damage penalty.

What I usually do is I boost the damage and speed to counteract this penalty.

 

[Swadia Nutt]

Shouldn't this be in the mod section of the forums?

 

[The Wandering Knight]

I'd say the only two skills they *really* need are athletics and shield.

 

[IamDuddits]

Which is why I made them their two highest skills.  Power Strike and Ironflesh are a close second. 

As for it being in the mods section, I was going to but I saw someone else (I think it might have been Fei Dao's Thread) posting something similiar for fixing just the Rhodoks.  I really wasn't sure where to post it, but I suppose you are right.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

For the Rhodok, I suggest to keep the spear and shield for all infantry except the Sergeant. Eliminate the "penalty when using with shield" for board spear, shortened spear, spear and war spear will help all troops using spear + shiled. Rhodok sergeant should get glaive, poleaxe and possibly scythe and shortened military scythe (all 2hander).

I'd also modify party template to add a small amount (1 to 3) of top tier troop to the reinforcement (the one end with "_c"). This make NPC parties a little stronger but not overpowering. If you think that the Nords and the Rhodok are a bit too weak, then give them more top tier than others, but keep the range troops balance.

Edit: as for armors and helmets, I currently consider the following (for troop level 14 and higher):

Swadian:
- Armors: 1) Plate, Coat-of-plate 2) Mail with surcoat (the white one) 3) Mail and plate, Light mail and plate 4) Padded cloth, Gambeson (all). .
- Helmet: great helm, guard helmet, bascinet, flat top, mail coif, padded coif

Vaegir:
- Armors: 1) Lamellar Cuirass, Studded leather coat 2) Nomad robe, Padded leather 3) Leather jerkin, Lamellar armor (looks the same as Lamellar Cuirass) 4) Tabard
- Helmet: nordic helmet, spike helmet, nasal helmet, steppe and nomad cap,...

Khergit:
- Armors: 1) Lamellar vest 2) Nomad robe 3) Nomad armor, nomad vest 4) Leather vest, khergit armor
- Helmet:  khergit guard helmet, khergit cavalry helmet, khergit war helmet, khergit helmet and all steppe caps

Nord:
- Armor: 1) Surcoat over mail (the grey one), mail hauberk, mail shirt, heraldic mail (all 4) 2) Leather jerkin, padded leather.
- Helmet: nordic helmet, nasal helmet,...norman helmet (?).

Rhodok:
- Armors:  1) Cuir Bouilli (look similar to plate armror), Brigandine, Haubergeon, Byrnie 2) Tribal Warrior Outfit, Ragged Outfit 3) Leather Armor
- Helmet: guard helmet, kettle helmet, helmet with neckguard, segmented helmet, skull cap.

Edit 2: as for the Nord, try Huscarl with no range weapons. Give them all 2h axes in the game and may be 1h axes with shield if you like. Veteran: long bow + arrow (barbed if you want), javelins, throwing axes, 1h or 2h axes, shield.

Try to see if you can beat a bigger swadian/vaegir party with fairly good mix of troops with the following:
- Nords: 20 huscarls and 30 veterans.
- Rhodok: 30 mix of sergeants (with 2h as suggested above) and veteran spearmen (prefer 15/15 each), 20 sharpshooter and trained crossbowmen (or even lower tier)

My party did pretty well when hold position. I played on foot to help out my front line.

 

[IamDuddits]

The thing with giving Veterans Bows (and Power Draw) and taking them away from Huscarls is that it makes no sense in a logical pattern.  If I upgrade to Huscarl I'm either going to have a top tier unit with points in Power Draw but no bow, or I'm going to mysteriously take points from one skill and throw them some place else.  I realize that your way is balanced but it doesn't make sense when you look at it from the perspective of a unit leveling up.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

Split the troop tree then. Huscarl (formerly known as Champion) and Champion.

Someone mentioned that Huscarl historically doesn't use bow. So, no bow and no range weapon for Huscarl. Champions will have range weapons but with lower melee capability than Huscarl. I did this for 0.894.

IIRC, since version 0.984 or 0.903, new troop can be added at the bottom without being out of the 255 range as before.

 

[Shik]

Historically, Huscarls were elite guards, elite bodyguards. There were a few (very small) armies formed out of elite huscarls.

They were highly trained with the axes, including throwing axes.

 

[SPD_Phoenix]

I'm fine with Huscarl having throwing weapons. Just feel that they will do better without them. Another thing, why should the Nord be the only faction with historically acurate troop type?

So if I'm going to go with a split tree huscarl/champion, then it's still a fairly logical upgrade:

- Veteran has: 3 power throw and 3 power draw.
- Huscarl will have 4 power throw, 3 power draw. Throwing weapons only.
- Champion will have 3 power throw, 4 power draw. Bow only.

It doesn't have to be a one point increase in those 2 skills.