Troop Equipment Selection: gripes & suggestions

[Orion]

After playing the beta for some time (at least 100 years), I have determined that certain troops can get certain weapons that don't make much sense. This post is my compilation of odd equipment choices, broken down by faction.

Khergit Khanate

Khergit Lancer
- The Guard armor is silly. It has bad protection, it is very expensive, and the only advantage it has is a lighter weight. It should be modified to have better protection, or lower price.

- The Khergits have two very stylish helmets, the Khergit War Helmet and the Khergit Guard Helmet. Where are they? The Lancer should get both of these options.

Khergit Horse Archer
- War bows. They're very large and very powerful. They don't fit the style of bows the Khergits currently use (short, recurve, and compound bows) and would be very unwieldy on horseback. Also, from a gameplay perspective, their high damage coupled with a horse archer's mobility is almost gamebreaking. It makes the Khergit Horse Archer incredibly powerful at very long distances, as well as aesthetically unpleasing.

Kingdom of Rhodoks

Rhodok Veteran Crossbowman
- The name is long and awkward. Rename them to Rhodok Sharpshooter or Rhodok Crossbowman. It looks better that way.

- They get the worst armor of all the ranged classes. Why? Swadian Crossbowmen get haubergeons, Vaegir archers get lamellar vests, Nord archers get mail hauberks, and Khergit Horse Archers get lamellar armor. The Rhodok Crossbowmen get an Aketon? Really? Give them studded leather or something similar. Currently, only the Vaegir horsemen get that, I think.

Rhodok Sergeant
- With the new line of polearms, this class is pretty solid. They could still use some different one-handed melee weapons in my opinion, but the military pick works pretty well already.

Rhodok Horseman
- Heavy armor? Great lances? Are these guys Swadians, now? They should be light cavalry, as the Rhodoks are an infantry-oriented faction. A heavy lance should be the longest thing these guys can get, and a wider variety of swords (including the arming sword, I love that model) should be included. Their heaviest armor is ridiculous, and the full helm is laughable for a Rhodok. Stick the guard helmet in its place, or remove it entirely. Their heaviest armor could be the cuir boilli from the original (but that might still be too heavy).

Kingdom of Nords

Nord Archer
- Give them another helmet, other than that stupid leather cap. Keep the cap if you must, but put something after it as well. A mail coif, perhaps?

- They have a short sword in their equipment list. I would suggest putting that as default, and having the longer sword you start with now be an upgrade. Also, more styles please. I know there are three or four styles of Nordic sword, plus their long and short variants. Also, the line of one-handed axes would be nice too, for variety.

- This is the only class where the war bow "fits." However, I'd still rather see Nord archers with longbows.

Nord Veteran
- Solid class.

Nord Scout
- The elite cavalry shield has what looks like celtic knotwork around the boss. If that really is celtic knotwork, then why don't the Nords have it? They're more celtic than Khergit lancers, and Khergit lancers have them.

- Nord Scouts can get a spear. I'd like to see them with the War Spear, too. I tend to play this class on foot, as it gives the Nords a way to take down cavalry without throwing weapons. Plus, the leaf bladed spears looks at home in the hands of a Nord.

Kingdom of Vaegirs

Vaegir Archer
- Lamellar vest? Really? That thing has an armor value in the 40's, and an archer gets it? Wait, the archer gets two-handed swords too. What the hell? Studded leather coat. Keep the bastard swords if you want, but I'd personally rather see these guys with two-handed scimitars.

- The dagger. It costs money. If you don't have enough money for a bastard sword, it gives you a dagger instead of the default (free) scimitar. Instead of being bumped back to square one, your ass is kicked all the way to square -5. Get rid of the dagger, please. I'd suggest this line of equipment: Nomad Sabre -> Scimitar -> Bastard Sword -> Heavy Bastard Sword. If two-handed scimitars are added, the bastard swords could be replaced with those.

- More helmet options, maybe

Vaegir Spearman
- One-handed maces? Is this where the Rhodoks originally went? Swords, please! These maces have stupidly short reach (60's), so they aren't useful at all in melee. Otherwise, I love this class for the spears they get.

- More helmet options

Vaegir Horseman
- Solid class. Another type of helmet would be cool, but I guess they're ok.

Kingdom of Swadia

Swadian Crossbowman
- Good class. I'd like to see their scimitar replaced with the line of straight swords, however. Also, the arming sword would be cool for these guys.

Swadian Infantry
- Another solid class.

Swadian Man-at-arms
- They don't need throwing weapons.

 

[SpiderMandala]

Khergit Lancer
- The Guard armor is silly. It has bad protection, it is very expensive, and the only advantage it has is a lighter weight. It should be modified to have better protection, or lower price.

Kingdom of Rhodoks

- They get the worst armor of all the ranged classes. Why?...

Kingdom of Nords

Nord Veteran
- Solid class.

- Nord Scouts can get a spear. I'd like to see them with the War Spear, too. I tend to play this class on foot, as it gives the Nords a way to take down cavalry without throwing weapons. Plus, the leaf bladed spears looks at home in the hands of a Nord.

Kingdom of Vaegirs

- The dagger. It costs money. If you don't have enough money for a bastard sword, it gives you a dagger instead of the default (free) scimitar. Instead of being bumped back to square one, your ass is kicked all the way to square -5. Get rid of the dagger, please. I'd suggest this line of equipment: Nomad Sabre -> Scimitar -> Bastard Sword -> Heavy Bastard Sword. If two-handed scimitars are added, the bastard swords could be replaced with those.

Vaegir Spearman
- One-handed maces? Is this where the Rhodoks originally went? Swords, please! These maces have stupidly short reach (60's), so they aren't useful at all in melee. Otherwise, I love this class for the spears they get.

just quoted the changes I can agree with based on my experience so far, not saying the others are poor ideas, I'm just not experienced with war band to concur yet.

I would like to make a secondary comment regarding the Vaegir spearman, or more specifically, maces, even more specifically, blunt weapons in general.

I think Orion is right, they're almost worthless when compared to their sharp and pointy brethren. They're slow they do less damage and in general are not in any way prefferable.

In single player blunts had the benefit of causing unconsciousness so that prisoners could be taken captive later. Since this is of no value in war band, I'd like to suggest a different secondary purpose for blunts...

Maybe an increased "stun" time after taking a hit? Make the victim take a few moments longer to recover, or a much increased knockdown chance?
I think that might give blunts a secondary purpose which would make them useful again. Knowing that a hit from that mace, or maul is going to leave you picking your teeth up for the next few seconds while his friends bear down on you is a considerable threat, and may serve to balance some of the issues regarding classes that are reloading/moving/whatever too quickly, hitting them with something heavy to slow them down. Could be a decent balance to those issues.

(if that suggestion belongs elsewhere or is too off topic Ill start it elsewhere.)

 

[Orion]

a much increased knockdown chance?
I think that might give blunts a secondary purpose which would make them useful again.

I'd second that. I believe that would be a good alternative to replacing their weapons all-together.

 

[SockMonkeh]

I think a good way to increase the effectiveness of blunt weapons would be to increase the overall effectiveness of heavy armor.

 

[Redfyre]

Huh?

 

[SpiderMandala]

I think a good way to increase the effectiveness of blunt weapons would be to increase the overall effectiveness of heavy armor.

I agree that heavy armor needs to be buffed some but I don't see how that will increase the effectiveness of blunt weapons.
blunt weapons are currently the least desirable of all weapon categories, if blunts stay the same and heavy armor gets improved, it just makes blunts even less effective against top tier, and thus even less desirable no?

 

[SockMonkeh]

Blunt weapons and piercing weapons are the most effective against armor. Piercing weapons are typically limited to a thrusting attack, making blunt weapons the best option for inflicting a lot of damage through armor. Currently, cutting damage can have quite an effect on the heaviest of armors, so you never really feel like you need a giant hammer to smash through it. If heavy armor were more resistant to cutting damage, the armor-negating properties of blunt weapons would be more important.

 

[SpiderMandala]

oh I guess that's true monkeh, still armor busting seems to be the specialty of pierce damage, blunt really doesn't get anything in its own right.

 

[cdvader]

[quote author= Orion]The Rhodok Crossbowmen get an Aketon? Really? Give them studded leather or something similar. Currently, only the Vaegir horsemen get that, I think.[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRcllSRIeU&feature=related . Now that would hurt.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

They didn't even show how much it penetrated 

 

[armagan]

Thanks a lot for the suggestions, Orion. We have implemented most of these in 0.540 update. We'll also be adding new equipment in time and hope to further improve faction balance with new versions.

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I agree with most of what you said, Orion.  One thing I would like for all the classes is a lot more variety.  Some classes already have quite a bit, but others are a bit lacking.  One thing I would like to see is more melee weapon choices for Swadian men-at-arms other than just bastard swords.

I disagree with this, however:

Vaegir Spearman
- One-handed maces? Is this where the Rhodoks originally went? Swords, please! These maces have stupidly short reach (60's), so they aren't useful at all in melee. Otherwise, I love this class for the spears they get.

The one handed maces help balance out the class in my opinion.  Vaegir spearmen are the best spearmen in the game in my opinion, since they get good armor/shields, and their spear can be swung like a sword.  If they had swords too, they would be too good imo.  But maybe it would work if you had to buy them and they were fairly expensive.

 

[SpiderMandala]

@ CtrlAlt

I think the concern was mroe that blunts are just seriously lacking as a weapon type. Now that the blunts have had knockback added in these blunts may be useful and actually contribute to strategy with multiple spearmen.

 

[Orion]

@ CtrlAlt

I think the concern was mroe that blunts are just seriously lacking as a weapon type. Now that the blunts have had knockback added in these blunts may be useful and actually contribute to strategy with multiple spearmen.

Absolutely right. With the new changes to blunt weapons in .540, they're worth having.

Plus, it makes the Vaegir spearman more unique, as they're the only class that gets them.

 

[Stromko]

I like the differences between factions, just needs a little tweaking as it is now. Some matchups, there's no way to win.

Re: Rhodok Crossbowmen being gimped by poor armor-- Can't Rhodok Crossbowmen equip shields though? Rhodok shields are really good-- they cover a large area and can soak up a lot of damage. Armor, no matter how good, usually seems to just make the difference between dying in 1 hit or dying in 2 hits. Shields, on the other hand, completely nullify any attack that they block.

I think it would make sense, anyway, for Rhodok to have poor armor and good shields, at least if they remain in the niche they have now. They rock 'tortoise-style' (shield on back, shield in hand) like nobody else, the hitbox for actually doing damage to someone like that is smaller than you can really aim at, you just have to spray arrows and pray if you're an archer. Melee, you have to hope you can catch them when they aren't blocking. With a horse and lance, you just may have a chance.

My two cents, Rhodok's massive shields shouldn't soak up dozens and dozens of arrows and attacks when other, smaller shields CAN'T. Archery is quite strong and I can understand people wanting a big honking Rock to beat that Scissors, but I don't like the idea of a skill-based game like Mount & Blade having 'strong' counters. That is, just because you're rock and the other guy is scissors, that shouldn't mean his weapon is scissors are completely worthless. I know that's the whole point of rock paper scissors, but rock paper scissors is a pretty lame way to win an fight when you've got WEAPONS innit?

Maybe have a chance that a shot that hits the shield can still hurt the person, just a little. I think a shield carried in the hand could have 98% damage mitigation. We'd barely notice the difference, you'd have to take a fifty arrows through your shield before you finally bled out from having all these things jabbing through your forearm. Since you hold a shield away from the body, it makes sense that it mitigates a lot of the force and lethality from a diverse array of attacks.

BUT, a shield held over your back doesn't have this benefit. It should have 80% damage mitigation at most. Each time a lance or a mace, axe, or steel-shod arrow slam into that shield, you're taking the full brunt. Arrows would jab straight through and potentially hit vital organs, blunt force would pulverize them. I could see better armor helping to increase this mitigation, if you had a tower shield on your back and heavy armor under it you should be able to take ten arrows in the back and live, but we're talking about armor-piercing arrows that can kill knights, right? A chunk of wood shouldn't be guaranteed protection.

I should point out I'm not saying all shields are overpowered, I'm just saying that huge, square shields are, especially when you've got one both front and back. You become a tank that doesn't even move slower or is encumbered in any way, and yet, the generous hitboxes of shields mean even your legs, head, and arms are impossible to hit.

It would make sense if the larger your shield is, the easier it is to break. If your first shield breaks, well I guess that's why you carry a second one, huh? Heck, the Romans used to nullify massive shields like that with one Pilum, you can't very well defend yourself when you've got a gnarled throwing spear stuck through your shield and tripping you up.

Really though, I just think it's unfortunate that no other faction gets so much benefit from shields. Archery is pretty strong, and factions with round, flimsy shields don't always have a counter. Nords are really screwed in this respect, they're worse than Rhodok in every way and have tiny shields. Their archers can fire fast but shortbows don't hurt much and are much less accurate than crossbows-- and they have no shields whatsoever to defend themselves from return fire, while they can't hurt a guy hiding behind a board shield unless he does something very dumb. They have 'scouts' as very basic cavalry that can't stand up to Rhodok's heavy cavalry. Their two-handed axes take dozens of hits in order to destroy the Rhodok's great shields. Melee, archers, cavalry, outclassed in every way.

Nord vs Rhodok is one matchup that always goes the same way. I was playing on the Battle server last niht, we'd had pretty much the same players every round and each fight could go either way, it was a lot of fun. But then we got Nord vs Rhodok. We couldn't do anything, we were outmatched in every way and handily so. The only way we could make it the least bit in doubt was going all cavalry, but, Rhodoks also got great spearmen, and if they go all cavalry, well, their cavalry is BETTER so ... Anyway, on that server it went from hundreds of rounds where victory changed hands virtually every round, to, an eight to zero shutout.

(edit) I should note though, I feel the balance is mostly okay. By that I mean there's really no strategies that are unbeatable or totally ideal. 'Tortoise-style' with massive, very hard to break shields is the only thing I can think of where a logically meh strategy is actually a strategy you'd be a fool not to use. It's still not entirely gamebreaking though, there's still a balancing factor. For instance, you can't really do ranged AND two shields, because you need 2 slots for weapon and ammo + 2 slots for shields. If you go with throwing weapons, you've only got 14 shots and very inaccurate, short-ranged ones at that. Being melee with 2 shields is quite strong, it screws over archers entirely, but cavalry could just ride away. Having 2 really big shields definitely makes you harder to hurt than anyone else on the battlefield, it really makes you a tank, but at least you lose out on some flexibility by going that route.

I think it needs tweaking, but it's not the end of the world.