Troop baseline weapon loadouts still make little sense.

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Ba18070

Recruit
Hello all,
Topic is exactly like it sounds. Units either have substandard equipment, stuff that doesnt mesh with their archetype or arent using it correctly. Some notable things:
1. One handed (arming)swords are nearly universally awful the way they're applied. Usually slow swinging, very long (easy to block or chamber) and awkward. For example the Aserai Kaskara is just terrible, but most other troops who have a one handed sword also do terribly with it. Fullered narrow sword, Fine Spatha, etc. If you want units to use a 1 handed weapon, make sure it has one of if not both the following properties: special damage (Blunt, shield breaker, cleave, etc), >90 swing speed. Length really is negotiable with a shield, its good but not as mandatory as swing speed.
2. No shock troops should ever carry a one handed sword. A 2 hander, two stacks of throwing javelins/axes and a shield is all you need. Save the last javelin for a one handed weapon.
3. Archers are given a really bad loadout typically. If you gave them all a two handed weapon for when they ran out of arrows they would be much better, or alternatively a long dagger or club. They either have to hit harder or swing much faster, giving your worst melee-skill troops one of your worst weapons is not really great. Since they cant carry a shield because of the double-arrow quivers, a two hander would make a lot more sense, otherwise they're just not using one of their arms in their own defense. Theoretically they could stop to grab a shield off a dead guy, sure. But they could also stop to grab a one handed weapon if they wanted it after they've used up both quivers. Meanwhile Fians have great skills and a great weapon so they just mow down everything in melee.
4. Some of the armor values are still really weird. Battanians dont know about higher than tier 2 helmets? Random troops will just have a severely deficient major piece (like one of the high tier Aaserai troops has a chain mail armor) and it really sticks out badly.
5. Veteran Falxmen are still significantly worse than Falxmen. Its time to take the Rhompaia and either cut the shaft in half or just give them their old falx back because they're pretty bad as is right now. Or create a new branch in the path after tier 4 Falxmen so that you have Veteran Falxmen that are just up-armored men carrying a slightly better Falx (you know, like the name implies?) and then some polearm based name that infers you're going to be using a falx-polearm. I like "them fellas what use the falx on the long stick" as a name personally.
6. Shock troops should always have a throwing weapon. That's part of being a shock troop- causing casualties on the run in and then hitting them with a hard charge. If the enemy can throw at you but you cant throw at them, you have to stay back. At that point you're a defensive unit, not a shock unit.
7. Some tier 6 cavalry has half-barding? Why? these are your elite of the elite troops. Armor the whole horse, please. No reason for a troop whos trained for 15+ years to get taken out by his horses back leg getting hit because you didn't want to spring for the rest of the armor.
8. Your troops should NEVER EVER just not have an item. I see there's lots of things where a template has 66% of armor and shoulders and the other 33% just gets armor, such as Sturgian Heavy Spearmen, similarly with Vlandian Sergeants with their cloak. You should either A) carry the previous item you had in that slot up with you, B) the unit will nick an item off the battlefield that is an upgrade and have it not even show up in the loot window or C) give the commander an option to donate items to those that are less equipped. Its also kinda super-BS that it happens because you pay the same upgrade cost whether you get the good or bad variety.
9. Create a rule where the name of the Spicevendor follower always has to be pronounced in stereotypically Australian way, making it spoys-vendah. Its clearly a change the game has needed since day one.
I dont want it to sound like doom and gloom the game is shaping up extremely well. It just feels really weird in your sandbox rpg kingdom builder to be playing with intentionally handicapped troops that you cant fix. Lets fix the base loadouts first then work on customizing by the player.
I welcome your feedback and additional concerns. Thank you for your time.
 
Last edited:

Taveren

Regular
WBWF&S
My own inspection of the troop lines indicate that tier 6 (and 5) units are intentionally nerfed to have inferior weapons and armour to the tier below. This is almost universal for all factions.
I made my own troop overhaul of all factions, giving them the 'correct' armour and weapons for their tiers (so there is now a definite weapon and armour progression, e.g. spatha > fine spatha > excellent spatha), and troops perform significantly better.

Most importantly, my top tier troops no longer suffer the highest casualty rates, which they do with vanilla mess-up
 

Ba18070

Recruit
Thanks for your reply.
If I had to pick a hill to die on, I dont necessarily have an issue with the downgrades if it keeps them on a power level parity, it is a video game after all. I would still like to see consistent upgrades but regardless, there are more significant issues to tackle. The biggest issues are things like: A template being significantly weaker than the others of the same troop type, a slot missing entirely (mainly shoulders) and bad weapons. One handed swords are currently the worst infantry weapons by a mile. Some troops carry one handers that will never ever use them- Vlandian Voulgier comes to mind immediately. Also 1.8 totally botched long weapons so polearm shock troops are fugged atm.

Here's to hoping they get it worked out by the end.
 
Hello all,
Topic is exactly like it sounds. Units either have substandard equipment, stuff that doesnt mesh with their archetype or arent using it correctly. Some notable things:
1. One handed (arming)swords are nearly universally awful the way they're applied. Usually slow swinging, very long (easy to block or chamber) and awkward. For example the Aserai Kaskara is just terrible, but most other troops who have a one handed sword also do terribly with it. Fullered narrow sword, Fine Spatha, etc. If you want units to use a 1 handed weapon, make sure it has one of if not both the following properties: special damage (Blunt, shield breaker, cleave, etc), >90 swing speed. Length really is negotiable with a shield, its good but not as mandatory as swing speed.
Yeah they ought to just be fast asf and hurt in a very wide range. Swords are quick, nimble and have a lot of surface to hurt people with.

2. No shock troops should ever carry a one handed sword. A 2 hander, two stacks of throwing javelins/axes and a shield is all you need. Save the last javelin for a one handed weapon.
I don't want to see troops given full kits for the sake of it. Sometimes you just give a guy a weapon he won't really use for the sake of immersion and balance. Not everyone should be cashed out like a player.

3. Archers are given a really bad loadout typically. If you gave them all a two handed weapon for when they ran out of arrows they would be much better, or alternatively a long dagger or club. They either have to hit harder or swing much faster, giving your worst melee-skill troops one of your worst weapons is not really great. Since they cant carry a shield because of the double-arrow quivers, a two hander would make a lot more sense, otherwise they're just not using one of their arms in their own defense. Theoretically they could stop to grab a shield off a dead guy, sure. But they could also stop to grab a one handed weapon if they wanted it after they've used up both quivers. Meanwhile Fians have great skills and a great weapon so they just mow down everything in melee.
I think archers should just suck at melee combat unless they're elite or have some special niche, so nada to this.

4. Some of the armor values are still really weird. Battanians dont know about higher than tier 2 helmets? Random troops will just have a severely deficient major piece (like one of the high tier Aaserai troops has a chain mail armor) and it really sticks out badly.
Yeah, I think Battania has some stupid bull**** with their gear. Don't even know why they still give Oathsworn that ugly scale helmet thing.

5. Veteran Falxmen are still significantly worse than Falxmen. Its time to take the Rhompaia and either cut the shaft in half or just give them their old falx back because they're pretty bad as is right now. Or create a new branch in the path after tier 4 Falxmen so that you have Veteran Falxmen that are just up-armored men carrying a slightly better Falx (you know, like the name implies?) and then some polearm based name that infers you're going to be using a falx-polearm. I like "them fellas what use the falx on the long stick" as a name personally.
I think falxes should just f*ck off tbh, but meh. I'd sooner see troops get their sense of distancing fixed up first. If you want a falxman, just use the falx man, or have fun with Fians in CQC. Both completely find troops at that.

6. Shock troops should always have a throwing weapon. That's part of being a shock troop- causing casualties on the run in and then hitting them with a hard charge. If the enemy can throw at you but you cant throw at them, you have to stay back. At that point you're a defensive unit, not a shock unit.
Again, depends. Sometimes it really is just better for them to just go right in without throwing stuff. AI have a terrible habit of just walking up with throwing weapons and getting ****ed up when they could have just went right in. I'd like if we had some sort of aggressive running throw or something.

7. Some tier 6 cavalry has half-barding? Why? these are your elite of the elite troops. Armor the whole horse, please. No reason for a troop whos trained for 15+ years to get taken out by his horses back leg getting hit because you didn't want to spring for the rest of the armor.
This is fair and fine.

8. Your troops should NEVER EVER just not have an item. I see there's lots of things where a template has 66% of armor and shoulders and the other 33% just gets armor, such as Sturgian Heavy Spearmen, similarly with Vlandian Sergeants with their cloak. You should either A) carry the previous item you had in that slot up with you, B) the unit will nick an item off the battlefield that is an upgrade and have it not even show up in the loot window or C) give the commander an option to donate items to those that are less equipped. Its also kinda super-BS that it happens because you pay the same upgrade cost whether you get the good or bad variety.
Yeah, I just don't get TW's idea to give some troops straight up trash loadouts instead of just... variations. And the trashloadouts don't even look good or anything, so aesthetics doesn't play into it.

9. Create a rule where the name of the Spicevendor follower always has to be pronounced in stereotypically Australian way, making it spoys-vendah. Its clearly a change the game has needed since day one.
I'll have you know its SPOICE-VENDAH. We don't f*ck around with ys or indoor voices down here.

I dont want it to sound like doom and gloom the game is shaping up extremely well. It just feels really weird in your sandbox rpg kingdom builder to be playing with intentionally handicapped troops that you cant fix. Lets fix the base loadouts first then work on customizing by the player.
I welcome your feedback and additional concerns. Thank you for your time.
I just don't see why we should even care about their troops. Just find a mod that suits your tastes, or better yet make your own fun stuff.
 

Brano

Sergeant at Arms
Mods are not required per se. It's simple xml file editing which takes little time if one knows what he's doing.
 
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