Towns....

[Little Raven]

First of all, my obligatory praise for the game. It rocks. I already registered, but finish this and I'll buy it again.

Also, forgive me if I'm treading over paved ground. I've tried to find and read all the 'read this first' stuff, but I may have missed some.

Now, a couple of notes about towns.

• Save yourself some work and don't bother designing maps for towns. Put up a nice portrait of a town along with your menu of where you want to go and call it good. Lose the Zendar map. Making the town into a level doesn't really add anything to the game....it's just time spent running around. Sea Dogs vs. Pirates really showed how the menu is superior. If for some reason you have to have back alleys or the like to do future quests, just make that a menu item.
• Right now, only Zendar seems to have a slave merchant. Now, I don't think every town should have one, but some others definitely should. (Like the salt mines. ) Also, some towns should have bounty officers, who will pay you well but only for prisoners of the opposing side.
• There seems to be only one arena. Again, not every town should have one, but there ought to be 3 or 4 around the map. And each one should have a different flavor. For instance, the arena at Zendar can become a real shoddy affair, with low wooden walls and rusted (but effective) equipment. But it should also have no entry fee. Other arenas (maybe in the nations capitals) should be bigger, grander affairs with bigger prizes but more skilled opponents and perhaps a stiff entry fee. Or maybe you have to become a champion at lower level arenas before you can fight in the big ones. It would be nice if there were a few more career options as a gladiator.

That's really all the springs to mind about towns at the moment. This game is seriously cool. Thanks to everyone involved for their hard work.

 

[BetterNights]

Psst: There IS a slave trader in the salt mines.

 

[Little Raven]

Well, there you go. First post and I already look like an idiot.

But I still think bounty officers would be a pretty cool idea. Are there any other slave merchants I missed?

 

[GreenKnight]

Well, I for one agree heartfeltly with your second and thirs proposal, but am dead set against the first. I think actually having the town to walk around with, to interact with people in, is a very fun, immersive element to the game. Admittedly, it's a lot of walking around...maybe that could be ameliorated somewhat by having your armor removed when you're in a town? Even if it's a hostile town, you're there under a flag of truce. I know I personally wouldn't want to trust to Swadian honor, but for game purposes, you could.

That said, I definitely think there should be more places where you can turn in prisoners. Like, for instance, in every Vaegir city, there's a place you can go to get money for prisoners, which will later be exchanged...or not exchanged. Either one's good, provided there be some prisons built into the towns. And I definitely like the idea of bigger arenas, with bigger prizes. Instead of saving up for the black armor, you can fight for it. Of course, since we'd be talking larger stakes, I'd prefer not having to trust to a random weapon assignment. Maybe you could choose your weapons, or maybe even bring your own.

 

[Mechstra]

* Save yourself some work and don't bother designing maps for towns. Put up a nice portrait of a town along with your menu of where you want to go and call it good. Lose the Zendar map. Making the town into a level doesn't really add anything to the game....it's just time spent running around. Sea Dogs vs. Pirates really showed how the menu is superior. If for some reason you have to have back alleys or the like to do future quests, just make that a menu item.

I don't agree with this, especially making Zendar a simple menu. Zendar is the starting point for the game, and it would have far less impact if it was just a bland menu. Plus, having menu items to visit 'secret back alleys' would be somewhat ludicrous.

 

[BetterNights]

Hey, it worked in Snatcher.

 

[Little Raven]

Well, I for one agree heartfeltly with your second and thirs proposal, but am dead set against the first. I think actually having the town to walk around with, to interact with people in, is a very fun, immersive element to the game.

There is an immersive element, but I think we should look at a cost-benefit analysis here. If every town goes the way of Zendar, then the developers need to come up with a map for each one. Since movement speeds are relatively slow, it's going to be quite a challenge to come up with designs that are distinct and yet small enough that people don't go crazy watching their character move from place to place.

If they scrap the idea of making each town a map, they can instead concentrate on making the areas you will use (merchant, tavern, arena, etc...) unique. Personally, I get more immession from a well designed pub than running down a street. But I understand YMMV.

That said, I definitely think there should be more places where you can turn in prisoners. Like, for instance, in every Vaegir city, there's a place you can go to get money for prisoners, which will later be exchanged...or not exchanged. Either one's good, provided there be some prisons built into the towns.

Different towns could put out bounties on different prisoner types. A mountain village might pay for bandits, while a Vaegir stronghold might have a bounty officer that pays well for Swadian troops.

And I definitely like the idea of bigger arenas, with bigger prizes. Instead of saving up for the black armor, you can fight for it. Of course, since we'd be talking larger stakes, I'd prefer not having to trust to a random weapon assignment. Maybe you could choose your weapons, or maybe even bring your own.

They could go a number of different routes with an expanded gladiator system. Off the top of my head, I'd probably suggest something like the following:

• Every gladiator has to start in the minor leagues as a Pit Fighter. These are small arenas in minor towns. Equipment is random and generally crappy. Horses are very rare. Prizes are small, though you can boost them by betting on yourself. Anyone can enter.
• If you win enough with few enough loses, you become a Prizefighter. You can now enter into fights at mid-sized arenas. Equipment is random, but higher quality. Horses are more common. Opponents are more skilled. Prizes are bigger, but still relatively small. You have to bet on yourself to really make anything. But you do get a better return on your bet.
• Win enough at the mid level and you become a Jouster. The biggest arenas now open their doors to you. Equipment is still random, but high quality. Horses are common. Prizes are bigger, but again, bet on yourself for real money. Opponents are more skilled.
• Win enough at that level, and you become a Champion. You still fight at the big arenas, but the game is different now. You enter exhibition matches instead of the normal games. You take your own equipment, and pay a hefty entry fee. The odds will be deliberated stacked against you, (two on one, that sort of thing) and your opponents will be very skilled. But if you win....big time moolah or even rare items as prizes. (if the engine can handle that...if not, lots of cash will suffice.)

 

[Worbah]

The towns shouldn't be so identical. Why are there always the same shops and such? And the taverns could be a bit more... Alive.

 

[corksacker69]

I figure you could classify towns by type or size, and have a bunch of different town maps for that specefic size. Like there could 3 town sizes, and 4 different maps for each size. Or just make maps for the really big important cities, and leave the small villages as just menus.

 

[GreenKnight]

Well, yeah. I don't have a problem with some places staying strictly menu based. But I think maps should be implemented as often as it's convenient. Especially in the big, bustling cities. Oh, and here's an idea. Since slow movement speed is such a problem, what if you were allowed to ride your horse in the city? That would cut down on travel time a good deal.

 

[Little Raven]

Since slow movement speed is such a problem, what if you were allowed to ride your horse in the city? That would cut down on travel time a good deal.

That would work, I guess. The obvious alternative is to go the Sea Dogs route, and add a hot key that speeds up time. It looks a little funny dashing from place to place, but it gets the job done, and those who prefer a nice immersive walk still have the option.

 

[corksacker69]

sheesh, just set encumbrance to 0 and make your charcater have a built in athletcis skill of 5000000 when in towns, and youre set.

 

[GreenKnight]

Wow, that'd be sweet. Who needs a horse on the battlefield when you're the Flash, only with an axe?"

 

[fishingbear]

I like the city-menu idea. It makes city-based encounters much easier to make or add in with a mod, and it allows your imagination room to fill in the blanks that would otherwise be underwhelmed (let's face it) by the size of any 3D city.

Daggerfall had good, big-ass cities. They were very impressive in terms of sheer size. But after running through them in awe a couple of times, I began to wish I could just get to where I was going.

Many RPG cities have only 20 or so buildings at most, like that town in Gothic 2. When you get up to a hilltop outside town and look down, it really doesn't feel like much of a city.

Maybe a hybrid system would be preferable? You'd navigate a series of menus to get around the mundane parts of the city (and stay out of / get in to trouble), but when you enter a Great Hall, temple, or other awe-inspiring place, or if you manage to get yourself tangled up in some streetfighting, you'd switch to 3D mode (I would hate to see alphabeta's excellent buildings go to waste).

Any menu system would beg for 2D illustrations, though. If you're using a menu or series of menus to wander around a Swagian or Vaegir town, a couple of pictures to give you an idea of what the place feels like would add a lot of bang for your buck.

 

[[P]aradox]

I think a 3d town with a menu that let you 'jump' to different vendors would be best. You can walk if you want, but in a click or two you can be standing in front of the merchant or the tavernkeeper. Right now it's just a pain.

 

[Kynes]

You can walk if you want, but in a click or two you can be standing in front of the merchant or the tavernkeeper. Right now it's just a pain.

I know what you mean but we are talking about a difference of about 1.5 seconds here. That extra 1.5 seconds might be 'a pain' if you were, say, a base-jumper or a SWAT sniper or a bomb-disposal technician or an olympic athlete.

As it stands you've reached a new level of pedantic and I salute you for it.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

I think a 3d town with a menu that let you 'jump' to different vendors would be best. You can walk if you want, but in a click or two you can be standing in front of the merchant or the tavernkeeper. Right now it's just a pain.

Especially if, like one of my chars, you're wearing some heavy armour but don't have any skill points in... athletics? Or whichever option it is that gives you improved movement speed. I guess the simple solution is to just put some skill point in, but dammit, I don't want to!

Personally I would like to see Zendar, Rivacheg and Sargoth. Zendar is the only neutral town, I would like to see it with more of a 'town square' with merchants from both factions and some neutral ones. The other two are, if memory serves, Capital cities of nations. They deserve something to distinguish them from smaller towns and backwater villages.

 

[Lhorkan]

Yes, a "jump" menu could be useful. Or, if you enter a city on the world map, you get the options we already have (with better interiors of course), and also an "enter city" button, to walk around in the city and talk to some people that are of no real use, or give you a small side quest or something. And you have the pleasure of exploring the city, and when you get tired of running around, you simply use the menu.

 

[Dvd]

Maybe there is another way? Do what the Romans did. Have all buildings centered around a small patio/garden. Looks sweet, and is easy.