Toughness Ability

[Arathiel]

Ok, here's my suggestion... there should be a 'toughness' stat added. It would be like any other ability in that you could upgrade it to 1/3 of, say, strength. And it would act as kind of a natural armor class upgrade. Here's the thing though... it would be cancelled out by armor. So this would actually make it feasable to take the fast agile unarmored berzerker route (which is a lot of fun, might I add), and be able to have some level of protection. It wouldn't be anywhere near the toughness of actual armor... say, it would max out at AC 10 or 12 (and that would be with 8 points invested in it), but it would keep you from being trampled to death all the time and offer limited protection against weapons. and I know some people will be like 'oh noes, that's not realistic, that's like a stoneskin spell or something,' but but if you think about it, some people really are tougher than others, and can take more punishment. It's conditioning, the way that martial artists condition their shins and forearms to break baseball bats. Thoughts?

 

[JohnathanStrange]

Yeah, and we could call it ironflesh.

 

[DaLagga]

I think light armor classes are fine the way they are. My barbarian type character (focusing on light armor) has 21 head AC, 15 body AC, and 17 leg AC. And he's VERY fast. Also, as JohnathanStrange pointed out, iron flesh is the same thing. Instead of taking less damage, it simply increases the amount of damage you can take...so its the same thing really and adding to it would be a bit unbalancing. If you're actually going around with virtually no armor, you should get owned in a couple of hits.

 

[Arathiel]

iron flesh doesn't really compare... say you soak 12 damage from your light armor. If you're taking hits from 1 handed sword, say 22 damage, you're now taking 10 damage per hit. If you put 0 points into iron flesh, and had no strength bonuses, just the stock 50 hp, you could take 5 hits. On the other hand, with no armor, you would need some 30 strength and 10 points in iron flesh to bring you up to 110 hp, to allow you to take the same number of hits. And that's just to compare with light armor, and not taking into account the fact that armored characters can have strength bonuses and iron skin bonuses on top of their armor. I'm saying there should be an attribute solely for unarmored characters, berkerker types. River pirates would have a very low level of this, and there could be bigger and badder naked bad guys as well.

And I'm not saying that we should be making unarmored characters uber strong... I'm suggesting that at an extremely high level, like 21+ in strength, the bonus should just be approaching very light armor. That doesn't seem imbalancing. And like I said, it wouldn't stack with armor bonuses, so you wouldn't be getting this bonus on top of your reinforced black armor.

But I'm obviously in the minority on this one, so I guess I'll just keep honing my skills till i can solo a warparty without it

 

[Thucydides]

Arathiel has a good point. I second the idea.

 

[Skyrage]

Doesn't make much sense to me...why should unarmored men suddenly be able to withstand weapons by investing in this skill...already have iron flesh which increases HP very slightly...can't really see how a man otherwise would learn to withstand a massive attack from a mace or sword...

 

[jackx]

The only way I could see something like this working is by having two types of damage...

"pain" damage which is potentially disabling in a fight but non-lethal
"lethal" damage which is, well, you guessed it, lethal

The amount of each damage type done with each hit would have to depend on weapon used, type and force of the blow, hit location, armour etc...


Then you could have some sort of "battle rage" ability that allows players to ignore most of the "pain" damage they receive for the course of the battle and voila, you have a "berserker" that'll be impervious to all but killing or crippling blows...
it could be a nice touch for the sea raiders, but then, they don't need exactly need to get much stronger, and as a player character, who obviously can't die after battle no matter how many wounds he received, it'd just be a win-win situation...

 

[Ilex]

but but if you think about it, some people really are tougher than others, and can take more punishment. It's conditioning, the way that martial artists condition their shins and forearms to break baseball bats. Thoughts?

Yes true. The thing that some can take a beating better than others is handeled with hit points in the game.
About being able "soak" damage: It should only work against blunt weapons (or cutting/piercing attacks turned into blunt (still an idea) see the thread: http://taleworlds.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1465). I don't think that I would like being able to sustain numerous cutting/piercing attacks with only your pants on.
What I would like to see would be that you would not matter if you are hit (if you have developed a certain skill... berserk?). Your attacks would not be interrupted eventhough you are struck with a certain chance depending on your skill.

 

[Arathiel]

Doesn't make much sense to me...why should unarmored men suddenly be able to withstand weapons by investing in this skill...already have iron flesh which increases HP very slightly...can't really see how a man otherwise would learn to withstand a massive attack from a mace or sword...

Very extreme conditioning has both historic and present day precedents. Google 'Shaolin Iron Body Technique' and you'll see what I mean. While Iron body is mostly defensive, Iron fist follows similar principles and the guys that have mastered that can crush a coconut with a punch. I've seen it done in a tournament (A coconut requires about the same amount of force to crush as a human head). There are also numerous videos of shaolin monks resisting incredible forces from bladed weapons, such as spears, and shrugging off massive blunt trauma. Now I'm not saying we need to toss Martial Arts into M&B, I'm saying that the concept of this kind of physical toughness is not unrealistic or unprecedented.

And please... we all know Iron Flesh is a joke... maxed out, that's +24 hp. 1 lucky javelin hit and that's negated.

 

[Skyrage]

Ya? Take a skinny and weak physical man and a very trained and muscular man, have them standing next to each other then throw a javelin at their chest...odds for either surviving is very slim...

Now, call iron flesh a joke again...

 

[mulaeeH]

great lets turn this game into another dungeons and dragons bla blah haeujx

no matter the size big or small a punctured heart kills.

that means if you have no armor and get stabbed you should really die and not survive because someone decided that your body fat would repel the blow

 

[Arathiel]

Ya? Take a skinny and weak physical man and a very trained and muscular man, have them standing next to each other then throw a javelin at their chest...odds for either surviving is very slim...

Now, call iron flesh a joke again...

ok, put a naked man next to a man wearing leather. Heave javelins at them. Think the leather's really gonna absorb that much of it? You sure you really want realism in this case? All I am saying is that it's not unreasonable for a person to be able to train their natural toughness up to the level of protection that might be provided by a leather jerkin.

my goal in suggesting this is not to turn this game into dungeons and dragons. It's simply to open up another potential gameplay style and make it feasable for players to pursue, should they want to. On one extreme we've already got the fully plated, mounted behemeths. That's where people usually end up. Woohoo, I'm a god or war. Woopedee doo. On the other end of the spectrum, you can play as a lightly armored, fairly fast fighter. And at the extreme end of that spectrum, there is the unarmored, unmounted, single weapon, so-freakin-fast-because-they-have-encumbrance-of-2-and-8-athletics speed demon. And they're a freakin blast to play... but it's pretty much too hard for anyone that's not extremely hardcore to succeed at all with, because of things like the horse damage... even minimal armor will soak that up, but they tear an unarmored person apart bit by bit. This skill would just open that potential route up a bit, make it slightly more accessable.

And are you honestly argueing finer points of realism when there is a skill to increase the tensile strength of shields merely by holding them?

 

[Arathiel]

I'll revise my proposition for it to only apply to blunt damage, as the horse damage is the main issue for me (I've been fighting a lot of dark knights lately), and I agree that no amount of conditioning will turn aside a sword thrust or arrow.

 

[Skyrage]

Leather's gonna defend a bit obviously...but not as much as heavier armor...


And I'd not call fully armored units behemoths...they can take more hits, thanks to their defence, but they're not invincible either...

As for shield skill, I'd say that it's way more reasonable...someone trained in the usage of shields would know how to use'm in a bit more effective way instead of just having them break after a few hits...

But as for armor useage, there's the tradeoff...if you are intending to use light armor, then don't get hit as much...simple as that...if you want more defence, get more armor...that's what people did in the past...

Don't expect to get into a massive fight totally unarmored and live it through cause anyone doing so should deserve being killed in one or two hits, just like a typical river pirate...if you wanna use light armor only, then do the most logical thing and stay away from the heavy fighting and use terrain to your advantage.

 

[Arathiel]

eh... it's not that hard to beat a stack of 60 dark knights solo with plate armor, a sword of war, and a decent horse.

As for the shield thing, I would like to see an actual source on that, rather than your expert opinion, as much as I respect it. You know, proof that an experienced fighter could have 30 thrown hatchets embedded in his shield, as opposed to the 6 or 7 of a novice.

But ah, I'm done with this debate. No use arguing it since nobody agrees, and I can do without it just fine. Just thought some other people might have felt the same way. I'll just tell my character to suck it up and laugh at all the armor-wearing girly men, even if he has to die a little more often than is ideal

 

[alesch]

I'm pretty sure what he meant was that someone who knew how to use a shield well would use it to deflect or block rather than simply to absorb blows.

I agree with having some kindof un armoured stat though, or possibly beefing up the iron flesh skill a bit.

 

[Cleitan]

So you want to make it so unarmored and armored combatants are somwehat equaled?

No thanks.

 

[Arathiel]

So you want to make it so unarmored and armored combatants are somwehat equaled?

No thanks.

My suggestion was to give extremely high level and high strength unarmored characters the option to gain a small amount of defense against blunt damage. If you think that means making them equal to armored combatants, than there's probably nothing reasonable I can say to change your mind.

 

[mulaeeH]

ill just say this, you choose which type of way you want to play, and when you do you have to be ready for the consecvences and the benefits, ok lets see

i chose to play with a re-textured heralric armor a great helmet a two handed bastard sword and iron greaves, now you are probably thinking why this big mixture well just for the fact that my heraldric armor looks like a templar coat and that iam fascinated by the crusades.

i run pretty fast i have a bow but no horse. the consecvences are stand in the middle of everything and get runned down by horses and attacks against the stomach do slghtly more dmg. but the benefits run faster looks cool etc etc..

now you decided to go the berserker way, wow man you must be faster than lightning but the ****ty part is that you loose some dmg, and that balances it out, theres no need for a skill that makes you slightly stronger.

in fact i think ima start a new character to see how fast i run

 

[Cleitan]

A small resistance to blunt damage at high lever for wearing no armor, I mean. Is it really worth it? If your high level with alot of strength you have max HP so whats 1 or 2 less damage from blunt weapons? Besides even if you are the toughest ogre guy, getting hit in the head with a steel club is going to give you nap time.