SP - General Too much Intercultural Marriage.

[five bucks]

There is already code that checks the distance between clans as a part of their suitability.

That's good, its effect should be increased.

I'm not sure how it handles fiefless clans but there aren't many of those floating around. It is setup to favor marriages happening over not happening though, presumably for world state reasons; players would ***** mightily if clans started going extinct because they were hated by every other clan in their faction (voting against them consistently) and all their immediate neighbors (raids and conquest) so there were no suitable matches for their eligible members.

Sure, nobody wants to break the game, but it can be better than it is now without posing too much risk, and if it causes problems adjustments can be made as needed (eg: reduce the amount which clans lose relation, or decrease the importance of relation in marriage matching slightly).

Anyway, Calradia's faction have full knowledge of the others and plenty cross-cultural contact so it isn't an equivalent to your example. Instead it is more like someone from Thrace marrying someone from the Black Sea steppes, which definitely did happen. I can't speak to other people's immersion but cross-cultual marriage among nobility wasn't uncommon historically.

Battanians and Khuzaits are heavily based on cultures who were on opposite sides of Europe, not the distance between Turkey and Armenia.

From an in-game perspective Battanians know of Khuzaits and vice versa (Khuzaits being brought along as mercenaries at Pendraic), but "full knowledge" is questionable. Either way the in-game lore matters less than the real-life inspiration since most players tend to heavily identify factions with their real-life counterparts.

 

[Apocal]

Sure, nobody wants to break the game, but it can be better than it is now without posing too much risk, and if it causes problems adjustments can be made as needed (eg: reduce the amount which clans lose relation, or decrease the importance of relation in marriage matching slightly).

They certainly could try to adjust things but mexxico said they don't want to take on any more risks regarding the campaign balancing. So they played it safe and the way the numbers work right now is meant to make sure marriages actually happen. And quite often. Even then you can usually see one or two clans that never marry and die off naturally in a playthrough.

TW -- or at least mexxico -- would probably be inclined to adjust some stuff if someone did the gruntwork of demonstrating the problem and figuring out a better balance of numbers.

Battanians and Khuzaits are heavily based on cultures who were on opposite sides of Europe, not the distance between Turkey and Armenia.

From an in-game perspective Battanians know of Khuzaits and vice versa (Khuzaits being brought along as mercenaries at Pendraic), but "full knowledge" is questionable. Either way the in-game lore matters less than the real-life inspiration since most players tend to heavily identify factions with their real-life counterparts.

Battanians take weapons and armor stylings in some cases from ancient Thracians. TW wasn't that much bothered by mixing together eras and cultures in somewhat haphazard ways. Anyway, full knowledge isn't really questionable when their caravans regularly travel back and forth to each other's lands and you can see in their Friends list that some Battanians have Khuzait friends and vice versa.

 

[five bucks]

Battanians take weapons and armor stylings in some cases from ancient Thracians. TW wasn't that much bothered by mixing together eras and cultures in somewhat haphazard ways. Anyway, full knowledge isn't really questionable when their caravans regularly travel back and forth to each other's lands

Like two units in their entire troop tree take inspiration from Thracians, but that's where it ends. Overall they are based on Western European Celts. Names and appearance reflect this and come across as Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc.

It's obvious that each faction is made of a mixture of cultures, but it is done within an overarching theme and you can tell what general culture each faction is trying to emulate.

Caravans travelling to lands doesn't mean the nobles have full acquaintance with other cultures to the point of regularly intermarrying. That's a big stretch.

and you can see in their Friends list that some Battanians have Khuzait friends and vice versa

It wouldn't be terrible if this (lords making friends internationally via Facebook) changed either and not just for immersion reasons. It kind of sucks when you execute someone and it pisses off multiple clans' worth of people around the entire world.

 

[Spyware]

Mates, I just think that when I'm fighting a faction that says "Vlandians", 7 out of 10 of them shouldn't be Imperials with Imperial Armor and calling themselves "Archon" of the Vlandians... Or... Beg of the Vlandians.

 

[Apocal]

Like two units in their entire troop tree take inspiration from Thracians, but that's where it ends. Overall they are based on Western European Celts. Names and appearance reflect this and come across as Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc.

...

Caravans travelling to lands doesn't mean the nobles have full acquaintance with other cultures to the point of regularly intermarrying. That's a big stretch.

I mentioned the weapons and the armor too. At any rate, it was just an example. Calradia is not as big as Europe from the British Isles to the Danube. Both explicitly (Arencios was able to ride from end to end fighting wars on every border in only three years time) and implicitly (caravans occasionally go from end-to-end).

And even if you don't accept that for whatever reason that leaves these guys being friends (and enemies) to show they know each other.

Mates, I just think that when I'm fighting a faction that says "Vlandians", 7 out of 10 of them shouldn't be Imperials with Imperial Armor and calling themselves "Archon" of the Vlandians... Or... Beg of the Vlandians.

Yeah, like I said, it isn't hard at all to change these values. Just crack open dnSpy and play around with them. It might break something but it will take longer than a normal playthrough to notice.

 

[five bucks]

Calradia is not as big as Europe from the British Isles to the Danube. Both explicitly (Arencios was able to ride from end to end fighting wars on every border in only three years time) and implicitly (caravans occasionally go from end-to-end).

None of this proves that those cultures are very well acquainted in-lore.

More importantly, none of it changes that some factions are clearly based on certain real-life cultures which never significantly intermarried, and this creates dissonance with player expectations when those cultures intermarry to a large extent ingame. That's what's important. You can't just lore it away as not being weird when most people like M&B's setting for the way it imitates real life.

 

[Apocal]

None of this proves that those cultures are very well acquainted in-lore.

And even if you don't accept that for whatever reason that leaves these guys being friends (and enemies) to show they know each other.

 

[Ongay1]

I agree that it feels strange to see a Khuzait horde lead by sturgians or imperials. I think they should focus on making faction leaders keep the race aesthetic.

 

[RitoDurito]

None of this proves that those cultures are very well acquainted in-lore.

More importantly, none of it changes that some factions are clearly based on certain real-life cultures which never significantly intermarried, and this creates dissonance with player expectations when those cultures intermarry to a large extent ingame. That's what's important. You can't just lore it away as not being weird when most people like M&B's setting for the way it imitates real life.

"Battanians and Khuzaits are heavily based on cultures who were on opposite sides of Europe, not the distance between Turkey and Armenia."

You're not wrong but also the Galatians did settle in Anatolia/Turkey so historically there could've/Would've been a mix of celts some point in the region but that being said maybe it could just be distanced based and/or less likely to mix to keep factions from mixing, or maybe they could just do something like Rome total war remastered where when they recruit aserai soldiers with White/Celtic faces

 

[Nodice83]

I agree that it feels strange to see a Khuzait horde lead by sturgians or imperials. I think they should focus on making faction leaders keep the race aesthetic.

I know it has been a part of a larger culture discussion. But as for this 'race aesthetics' i assume some factions should be able to convert various nations (via perk) to let say native troops. I think of Empire as good example, they should be allowed to convert any nation troops to a 'foederati' type of unit and some Nations should take morale hit for having less natives than stranieri in their ranks. Etc. This could add an extra flavour to the game and shouldn't be too complex to apply.

 

[Ongay1]

Even if nobles mixed , they should look more like the faction they are in at the moment. That way diversity is still achievable in late game by all factions because as of now , almost everyone looks like an imperial thus we lose some diversity. I like vlandian nobles that look like vlandians and khuzaits nobles that look like khuzaits, ect ...

 

[five bucks]

@Apocal I didn't reply to

And even if you don't accept that for whatever reason that leaves these guys being friends (and enemies) to show they know each other.

because I'd already replied to it in the prior post and you didn't reply to that:

It wouldn't be terrible if this (lords making friends internationally via Facebook) changed either and not just for immersion reasons. It kind of sucks when you execute someone and it pisses off multiple clans' worth of people around the entire world.

It's just another, non-lore-related, gameplay facet of the same problem people are talking about with nobles from cultures on opposite sides of the continent intermarrying en masse.

 

[Marbles20]

Really the only thing I could see them changing is the dialogue to make sure they are using the proper titles and fixing the bug regarding which culture the children from 2 cultures acquires.

I think the fix for the bug would be a basic check that factors in a) the parents' culture and b) the current culture of the kingdom they are born into. So very basic pseudocode example:
If kingdom_culture = parent_A_culture
Then child_culture = parent_A_culture
Elseif kingdom_culture = parent_B_culture
Then child_culture = parent_B_culture
Else randomized parent_culture = child_culture

Thats just the basic logic, obviously that is garbage as far as code, but it lays out the essential checks that would play into a child's culture.

As far as nobles changing their armor to conform to the kingdom they are in I honestly don't see that as game/immersion breaking. If I had amazing custom armor made for me, but I moved to another land I wouldn't willingly abandon that armor unless I got better armor. That would be unlikely since my reason for leaving the kingdom I was from was likely due to financial reasons and custom armor costs a lot of money. If anything they might wear a tabard or sash with their new kingdom's colors/crest/coat of arms/etc. I just don't see them bothering to redo the code for that.

 

[Spyware]

As far as nobles changing their armor to conform to the kingdom they are in I honestly don't see that as game/immersion breaking. If I had amazing custom armor made for me, but I moved to another land I wouldn't willingly abandon that armor unless I got better armor. That would be unlikely since my reason for leaving the kingdom I was from was likely due to financial reasons and custom armor costs a lot of money. If anything they might wear a tabard or sash with their new kingdom's colors/crest/coat of arms/etc. I just don't see them bothering to redo the code for that.

Changing armor for established nobles(18+ years old) isn't financially and socially realistic however those pre-18 years old or at the final growth stage should not have combat armor until they actually are able to spawn as party leaders in my opinion.

 

[EverKira]

I'm going to come revive this thread to make several points:

1. What real world cultures that were sampled for the creation of this work of fiction do not matter. It doesn't matter that the Vlandians have a lot of "French from around the 100 years war" vibe, they are not the French they are a made up culture. Battanians can be inspired by Celtic culture but they are not Celtic.

2. The entire world that we have to play on can be circumnavigated on horseback in under a year of game time. Which is 1/3 as long as a real year. Making the area smaller than the British Isles. You're complaining not that someone from Norway married someone from the north coast of Africa, but that someone from Edinburgh married someone from Dover.

3. There is already a rich history of warfare between these countries and as we can see from our own gameplay, when you constantly fight people they like you more. This is going to lead to friendships and relationships between people from different countries.

4. This is all fictional and if Taleworlds wants to ban in kingdom marriage to expand the frankly tiny gene pool in each of the kingdoms, it would make more sense than complaining about how people who fled their homeland after it was conquered intermarried with the nobility of the land they ended up in.

5. Unless Caladog is giving out Battanian armor to go with the sword for swearing allegiance to him or Rhagea is giving out cataphract armor when you join her side, expecting that everyone dress appropriately for their new country is a little ridiculous. Armor costs, especially T-5 and above, are frankly out of control.

 

[Ulfhedinn_]

These are good points. However, I go with @Spyware . It is more immersive to me to believe that factions (and their peoples) are vying for survival in this great scorched land and thus nurturing unity among their fellow men and being more hostile to outsiders. Think like the beginning of the For Honor story. Of course there is eventually a mixture, both in relationships and in armies. But a little less would be better.

 

[five bucks]

1. What real world cultures that were sampled for the creation of this work of fiction do not matter. It doesn't matter that the Vlandians have a lot of "French from around the 100 years war" vibe, they are not the French they are a made up culture.

It matters if enough players think it matters.
Taleworlds has put a lot of effort into making the game's cultures similar to real-life cultures, with the aim of immersing people in a certain (fictionialized) historical setting.
In their words, "Bannerlord works best when it cleaves as closely to real life as possible."
When cultures on opposite sides of the world overlap heavily in a way they clearly wouldn't in that historical setting (e.g. ethnically Celtic nobles being elected an Arabic Sultan), it disrupts the immersion they're trying to create.
Tell me: If you can remove something that breaks immersion for people, why not do it? Even if it doesn't break immersion for you personally, that doesn't mean everyone else will stop seeing how it's weird.

2. The entire world that we have to play on can be circumnavigated on horseback in under a year of game time. Which is 1/3 as long as a real year. Making the area smaller than the British Isles. You're complaining not that someone from Norway married someone from the north coast of Africa, but that someone from Edinburgh married someone from Dover.

The world map feeling too small is something players often complain about also.
Either way, that's something which is easier to ignore than some random red-headed whitey getting elected to become Khan of the Khuzaits.

3. There is already a rich history of warfare between these countries and as we can see from our own gameplay, when you constantly fight people they like you more. This is going to lead to friendships and relationships between people from different countries.

Yes, who could forget, say, the rich friendship between China and Japan, who have been fighting on-and-off since 660.
"According to a 2014 BBC Poll, 73% of Japanese people express a negative view of China, the most negative perception of China in the world, while 90% of Chinese people express a negative view of Japan, the most negative perception of Japan in the world."

4. it would make more sense than complaining about how people who fled their homeland after it was conquered intermarried with the nobility of the land they ended up in.

As it stands right now nobles don't have to have their homeland conquered in order to leave and intermarry with other cultures.

Ultimately it's just really weird to see the game's cultures go from completely homogenous at the start to completely heterogenous within the period of 20 years, and then everyone in-game acts like it's always been that way, with a Sturgian emigree going so far as to tell you "my family has loyally served the Empire for centuries" when they only just moved over last month.

Why go to so much length to defend this when it's something so many players don't like? It harms immersion for many people, so just change it, there doesn't need to be a debate.

 

[EverKira]

It matters if enough players think it matters.
Taleworlds has put a lot of effort into making the game's cultures similar to real-life cultures, with the aim of immersing people in a certain (fictionialized) historical setting.
In their words, "Bannerlord works best when it cleaves as closely to real life as possible."
When cultures on opposite sides of the world overlap heavily in a way they clearly wouldn't in that historical setting (e.g. ethnically Celtic nobles being elected an Arabic Sultan), it disrupts the immersion they're trying to create.
Tell me: If you can remove something that breaks immersion for people, why not do it? Even if it doesn't break immersion for you personally, that doesn't mean everyone else will stop seeing how it's weird.

The world map feeling too small is something players often complain about also.
Either way, that's something which is easier to ignore than some random red-headed whitey getting elected to become Khan of the Khuzaits.


As it stands right now nobles don't have to have their homeland conquered in order to leave and intermarry with other cultures.

Ultimately it's just really weird to see the game's cultures go from completely homogenous at the start to completely heterogenous within the period of 20 years, and then everyone in-game acts like it's always been that way, with a Sturgian emigree going so far as to tell you "my family has loyally served the Empire for centuries" when they only just moved over last month.

Why go to so much length to defend this when it's something so many players don't like? It harms immersion for many people, so just change it, there doesn't need to be a debate.

Because your entire argument is "this fictional world needs to be more racist so that I can enjoy it" and that's a load of crap.

Yes, who could forget, say, the rich friendship between China and Japan, who have been fighting on-and-off since 660.

"According to a 2014 BBC Poll, 73% of Japanese people express a negative view of China, the most negative perception of China in the world, while 90% of Chinese people express a negative view of Japan, the most negative perception of Japan in the world."

I'm using the in game mechanics of beating a noble and releasing them to increase how much they like someone. That's how they end up with friendships.

 

[Apocal]

Why go to so much length to defend this when it's something so many players don't like? It harms immersion for many people, so just change it, there doesn't need to be a debate.

Because I like it. After awhile, it kinda reflects the complicated web of relationships that made the feudal era, well, feudal, and more accurately depicts the kind of cross-cultural exchanges that were common in the time before nation-states and mass nationalism.

Also it ensures that weak factions don't accidentally die out because they were too picky with the marriage partners.

PS:

Either way, that's something which is easier to ignore than some random red-headed whitey getting elected to become Khan of the Khuzaits.

In historical sources, both Kygryz and Kipchak people were described as having red hair, and while Cumans weren't ever described as having red hair, they were universally known for being blonde.

This is why you shouldn't lean on history to support your case.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I’m with Apocal on this.


Some of y’all would hate me, I always roll sturgian and marry Zuad (aserai and one of the few black women). She is bae.

Don’t **** with my intercultural love.

Lmao I choose the one that looks like my wife.

Zuad is bae.

Spoiler