Too much Intercultural Marriage.

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five bucks

Squire
Because I like it. After awhile, it kinda reflects the complicated web of relationships that made the feudal era, well, feudal, and more accurately depicts the kind of cross-cultural exchanges that were common in the time before nation-states and mass nationalism.
A kingdom becoming half populated by people from the other side of the globe within the second generation is not an accurate representation of the medieval period overall.
Note that use of the word "overall" before providing examples of exceptions.
Also it ensures that weak factions don't accidentally die out because they were too picky with the marriage partners.
As has already been established earlier in this thread, other values can be tweaked if necessary, e.g. change the threshold of relations which prevents clans from marrying. The thread title is asking for less intercultural marriage from far-away factions, not none at all, so it will still be possible for factions to marry from the other side of the world if there are zero viable candidates at home.
In historical sources, both Kygryz and Kipchak people were described as having red hair
I also said "red-headed whitey".
Pretty easy to see the difference between
And
 

Ulfhedinn

Sergeant
As has already been established earlier in this thread, other values can be tweaked if necessary, e.g. change the threshold of relations which prevents clans from marrying. The thread title is asking for less intercultural marriage from far-away factions, not none at all, so it will still be possible for factions to marry from the other side of the world if there are zero viable candidates at home.

+1
 
Ultimately it's just really weird to see the game's cultures go from completely homogenous at the start to completely heterogenous within the period of 20 years, and then everyone in-game acts like it's always been that way, with a Sturgian emigree going so far as to tell you "my family has loyally served the Empire for centuries" when they only just moved over last month.

Yes, I think this is the main reason this feels silly. You have these ridiculously uniform ethnostates, the likes of which have never existed outside the imagination of 13 year old balkan nationalists, but it only takes a few ingame weeks for it to feel more natural. It's impossible to take the lore of the game remotely seriously when it's so blatant that the factions were just plonked down like frozen packages until you start the game. They have no history, the borders are 100% clean and evenly spaced, and there is no contact between any of them until about a week or so into the game.

In reality it doesn't take long for even the most fundamentally different cultures to start mingling after a few years of contact. During the crusades, most of the european colonists were completely indistinguishable from the orthodox christian and muslim locals within a few years. Portuguese colonists in Kongo had intermarried and assimilated knto their own hybrid culture within a decade of contact. Oda Nobunaga's right hand man was Tanzanian. Cultural differences are usually only maintained by force or propaganda.
 

five bucks

Squire
Cumans were white and Kipchaks were (probably) not too much different from them, considering how much intermarriage there was.
Considering I was referring to white as in the Celtic pallid skin tone (as in the picture), are you going to provide a source on the existence of this pale-skinned, freckly ginger Kipchak Khan?
Yes, I think this is the main reason this feels silly. You have these ridiculously uniform ethnostates, the likes of which have never existed outside the imagination of 13 year old balkan nationalists, but it only takes a few ingame weeks for it to feel more natural. It's impossible to take the lore of the game remotely seriously when it's so blatant that the factions were just plonked down like frozen packages until you start the game. They have no history, the borders are 100% clean and evenly spaced, and there is no contact between any of them until about a week or so into the game.

In reality it doesn't take long for even the most fundamentally different cultures to start mingling after a few years of contact. During the crusades, most of the european colonists were completely indistinguishable from the orthodox christian and muslim locals within a few years. Portuguese colonists in Kongo had intermarried and assimilated knto their own hybrid culture within a decade of contact. Oda Nobunaga's right hand man was Tanzanian. Cultural differences are usually only maintained by force or propaganda.
The thread isn't a complaint about cultures that are right next door mixing to any degree. It's a complaint about cultures on the other side of the continent from each other mixing heavily within a single generation due to bugged/flawed game mechanics.

I agree it would make sense for a bit more overlap between neighbouring cultures at the start of the game. I've actually proposed in the past that Empire frontier villages should have more of a mix of notable cultures, so that the game has less total Empire troop recruitment.
 
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Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Considering I was referring to white as in the Celtic pallid skin tone (as in the picture), are you going to provide a source on the existence of this pale-skinned, freckly ginger Kipchak Khan?
Didn't say anything about pallid, because that isn't the kind of trait that would last long if you live out in the sun constantly. They are described as "ruddy" though, which is what happens to pale people who make their living outdoors. Anyway:
1. "They have blue eyes and red hair."
2. Records also describe them as “ medium height, sometimes tall, firm and sturdy bodied, long-faced, fair-skinned, ruddy-cheeked, usually hook-nosed and bright-eyed ” (Gumilev, 2005, p. 40).
 

five bucks

Squire
Didn't say anything about pallid, because that isn't the kind of trait that would last long if you live out in the sun constantly. They are described as "ruddy" though, which is what happens to pale people who make their living outdoors.
The gloomy """sun""" of the British Isles is a bit different from that of other places, and in my experience with people of Scottish/Irish descent they don't tan, they just develop freckles and/or get sunburn. Here's a typical result from googling "Irish farmer".
ifc-f-1024x598.jpg

Nice source! Enlightening, I've learned something today. Alright, I'm wrong on that particular thing you introduced into this argument. Kipchaks could be pale (in the 13th century when those sources refer to, anyway).

But in the overall argument the more important point is: while Khuzaits draw inspiration from multiple cultures including the Kipchaks, their in-game appearance is definitely more Asiatic, and nothing at all like pale and red-haired. Khuzaits are based on Avars, Göktürks, Khazars, and Mongols as well, and their actual appearance takes strong cues from the Mongols, not Kipchaks.

latest

So yeah, this pic and the pic further up still look nothing alike, which shouldn't need pointing out if you weren't being disingenuous.
I don't even think you seriously believe that it's not a weird thing for Battanians to become the Khans of the Khuzait Khanate. You just wanted to get involved in a historical discussion (fair enough, I like historical discussions).
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
What is the point of comparing real world ethnicities and culture mixing to a world of fiction? The time to travel in BL is a lot faster then Europe, so it doesn’t really make all too much sense.

However, if you want a historical example of nobles not being the same culture as those they rule over, English nobles spoke French for centuries while the peasantry spoke English.
 
I don't even think you seriously believe that it's not a weird thing for Battanians to become the Khans of the Khuzait Khanate. You just wanted to get involved in a historical discussion (fair enough, I like historical discussions).
As someone who likes to look at the big picture, I think the whole debate was about messing with you and being contrarian. These are noble goals and should be respected.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
I don't even think you seriously believe that it's not a weird thing for Battanians to become the Khans of the Khuzait Khanate. You just wanted to get involved in a historical discussion (fair enough, I like historical discussions).
I legitimately don't think it is weird because it doesn't happen very often*. Most of the time it does happen (IME), they are Imperial culture which just seems like one faction bucking up its legitimacy as restorers of the Empire (even if it is HRE-style) so it doesn't surprise me.


*The biggest factor in elections is money and the ruling clan will generally have the most money in their faction, unless the player has joined. The next biggest factor is relations, and again, the ruling clan has an advantage there compared to foreign clans. Strength? Ruler bonus to party size. Clan tier? All ruling clans start as tier 6 so it is probably a boost and at worst a wash. On top of that, I think (but can't currently confirm) there is a ruler bonus applied as well.

Finally, ruling clans amass the most influence by far, so get their outsized boosh vote.

Basically, you need the faction to first win for awhile (so they actually pick up foreign culture clans) but then for the ruling clan to lose their holdings (so they go broke) while not being so bad off that the foreign clans defect. It isn't a situation that happens very often. What does happen often though is kid with the wrong culture being born and somehow getting elected ahead of the king's existing heir. Either because the same-culture heir(s) are dead or because they were married off to clan heads (removing them from their own clan).


As someone who likes to look at the big picture, I think the whole debate was about messing with you and being contrarian. These are noble goals and should be respected.
I've been pushing back against homogeneous factions for months, not just in this thread.

If I wanted to be contrarian and mess with people, I'd start a thread titled "Feasts are terrible, please don't add them."
 

five bucks

Squire
What is the point of comparing real world ethnicities and culture mixing to a world of fiction?
The time to travel in BL is a lot faster then Europe, so it doesn’t really make all too much sense.
Because despite being technically "fiction", a big part of this series's appeal to many people is its close similarity to real history.
Taleworlds recognize this which is why they say "Mount and Blade's Calradia is a low-fantasy setting that we think gains from cleaving fairly closely to history".
Seeing Bizarro world combinations of people which you know would never happen in that historical period damages the ability to immerse in it.
Sure you can use mental gymnastics to make it work in-universe, but a lot of people are playing the game for an early medieval setting, not for a different setting with different logic.
However, if you want a historical example of nobles not being the same culture as those they rule over, English nobles spoke French for centuries while the peasantry spoke English.
The Normans and English were right next door to each other, and the Normans became the rulers by direct conquest, not defection or intermarriage. So that example doesn't apply to this discussion (cultures on opposite sides of the in-game continent).
I legitimately don't think it is weird because it doesn't happen very often*. Most of the time it does happen (IME), they are Imperial culture which just seems like one faction bucking up its legitimacy as restorers of the Empire (even if it is HRE-style) so it doesn't surprise me.
Again, nobody is complaining about cultures overlapping when they're right next door. So considering they border everyone, and it's appropriate to their real-life source material too, I don't have an issue with the Empires getting heavy overlap with other cultures either (except the dialogue saying a new defector has been a "loyal servant for generations"), but that isn't what's being discussed here.

Let me put the question more directly, are you saying you don't find it at all incongruous with the setting for an Arabic-style country to have a large number of Celtic-style nobility?
I've been pushing back against homogeneous factions for months, not just in this thread.
If I wanted to be contrarian and mess with people, I'd start a thread titled "Feasts are terrible, please don't add them."
I didn't say contrarian. I just think you're so focused on showing off the historical exceptions that you don't want to admit the situation overall is not actually representative of history.
 

Phantom425

Sergeant
Because despite being technically "fiction", a big part of this series's appeal to many people is its close similarity to real history.
Taleworlds recognize this which is why they say "Mount and Blade's Calradia is a low-fantasy setting that we think gains from cleaving fairly closely to history".
Seeing Bizarro world combinations of people which you know would never happen in that historical period damages the ability to immerse in it.
Sure you can use mental gymnastics to make it work in-universe, but a lot of people are playing the game for an early medieval setting, not for a different setting with different logic.
Except the Sturgians are close to pretty much everyone who the OP posted about. They border the Battanians, Khuzaits, and Vlandians. And it isn't like people didn't travel far in history to take part in history, look at the Varangian Guard. It doesn't really take mental gymnastics to see that this stuff is plausible.
The Normans and English were right next door to each other, and the Normans became the rulers by direct conquest, not defection or intermarriage. So that example doesn't apply to this discussion (cultures on opposite sides of the in-game continent).
It applies to the point that only the ruling clan should be able to intermarry, and not the nobles below them. Lower Nobles, as shown by the English Nobles speaking French. And the French and the English, even though they were close, didn't really like each other.
 

the_hajji

Sergeant
It wasn't uncommon in medieval Europe but I'm not aware if this was a practice with different religious groups. I'm aware of some Byzantine/Western European States' alliances that were back up with marriages but no more than that. There is no religion in M&B so no further discussion based on that... Calradia reminds me of Westeros and all those clans that intermingle people to form alliances. I will stick to that. Works for me.
The Byzantines sometimes married their daughters to Turkic allies. Most famously with the Ottoman Khan Orhan marrying a Byzantine princess.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Let me put the question more directly, are you saying you don't find it at all incongruous with the setting for an Arabic-style country to have a large number of Celtic-style nobility?
Ah, I see the disconnect here.

I would find it weird if a purely Arabic setting had Celtic nobility in there, yes. But I don't see Calradia as being too big for factions on the other side to have awareness and relationships with one another -- which means defections from across the way. My personal belief is that it is more or less Anatolia in size (which is plenty big) with roughly the same arrangement of cultures. So it isn't like having a Celt noble holding court on the Tigris River and more like someone from Thrace winding up in with the Mamluks in Syria.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
Ah, I see the disconnect here.

I would find it weird if a purely Arabic setting had Celtic nobility in there, yes. But I don't see Calradia as being too big for factions on the other side to have awareness and relationships with one another -- which means defections from across the way. My personal belief is that it is more or less Anatolia in size (which is plenty big) with roughly the same arrangement of cultures. So it isn't like having a Celt noble holding court on the Tigris River and more like someone from Thrace winding up in with the Mamluks in Syria.

Of course, nobles of British Island (or Northern European in general) birth or decent have both campaigned, and owned land in the middle east throughout history - whether it was as representatives of the Roman Empire, or as parts of the Norman mercenary diaspora fighting for or trying to steal Byzantine lands, or as a host of various groups on Crusade.

It is entirely plausible as an alternative history setting, for a noble of Scottish birth to own land on the Tigris. There are plenty of real world pathways through which that eventuality might plausibly come about.

So even if you do see our game map as a larger faux-European size map, there is nothing anachronistic relative to real world history to see nobles from a northern latitude governing or fighting in a southern latitude. So I don't give any credence to that kind of thinking. What is anachronistic, is thinking that high degrees of geographic mobility don't occur amongst adventurer warrior castes and societies through history.
 

five bucks

Squire
Except the Sturgians are close to pretty much everyone who the OP posted about. They border the Battanians, Khuzaits, and Vlandians.
Yes, you're right and I don't find that as big a deal, so long as it isn't in huge numbers. But they don't border the Aserai.
And it isn't like people didn't travel far in history to take part in history, look at the Varangian Guard.
I know a little about them. From what I can find out, the majority of the Varangians stayed as soldiers and did not achieve the rank of nobility for at least a couple of hundred years, which is what this discussion is about. Many joined the Guard, got rich, then went home rather than assimilating. The highest social rank I can find a Varangian holding is Spatharokandidatos, which was equivalent to a court notary or low-ranking judge.
100 years after the Guard's inception, Anna Komnene was still referring to them as "axe-bearing barbarians", so that doesn't say much for the common assimilation of nobility from distant lands that we see in Bannerlord.
Fun fact: Bannerlord was almost going to have Varyagian Guard until they became cut content.
It doesn't really take mental gymnastics to see that this stuff is plausible.
When you see a truckload of culturally Celtic nobles strutting around as the inheritors of culturally Arabic fiefs in a 1000s setting, it definitely takes mental gymnastics to reconcile that imagery.
I would find it weird if a purely Arabic setting had Celtic nobility in there, yes. But I don't see Calradia as being too big for factions on the other side to have awareness and relationships with one another -- which means defections from across the way. My personal belief is that it is more or less Anatolia in size (which is plenty big) with roughly the same arrangement of cultures. So it isn't like having a Celt noble holding court on the Tigris River and more like someone from Thrace winding up in with the Mamluks in Syria.
I get what you're saying about there being an in-universe explanation, but my point is that a lot of people play the game for the way it resembles a real historical period, as opposed to the ways it doesn't.

And this just doesn't look historical.
Of course, nobles of British Island (or Northern European in general) birth or decent have both campaigned, and owned land in the middle east throughout history - whether it was as representatives of the Roman Empire, or as parts of the Norman mercenary diaspora fighting for or trying to steal Byzantine lands, or as a host of various groups on Crusade.
"Throughout history" yes, but in this particular "600AD-1100AD" setting, no. The First Crusade was Frankish, German and Italian, with no Celtic armies participating, not even Brittany. See here the start and end locations.
Any small number of Celts who could theoretically have tagged along (I know of no historical mention of this) did not end up as nobility in the Middle East. Also this discussion is more about nobles joining another country through marriage and defection, not so much conquest or mercenary service.
It is entirely plausible as an alternative history setting, for a noble of Scottish birth to own land on the Tigris. There are plenty of real world pathways through which that eventuality might plausibly come about.
See replies made to Apocal and Phantom.
So even if you do see our game map as a larger faux-European size map, there is nothing anachronistic relative to real world history to see nobles from a northern latitude governing or fighting in a southern latitude.
So I don't give any credence to that kind of thinking. What is anachronistic, is thinking that high degrees of geographic mobility don't occur amongst adventurer warrior castes and societies through history.
Two massive overgeneralizations/false equivalences.
The true, but vague and irrelevant statement that some people from history from a "northern latitude" have once governed a "southern latitude" doesn't make it not anachronistic for a Celt to do so in a time period when it never happened.
This discussion is about established nobility, not the (again vague) category of "adventurer warriors".
 

SOku

Sergeant
The First Crusade was Frankish, German and Italian, with no Celtic armies participating, not even Brittany.

Alain IV went to the first Crusade actually, not sure about how numerous they were but they went, inside the Normand army.
 
I get what you're saying about there being an in-universe explanation, but my point is that a lot of people play the game for the way it resembles a real historical period, as opposed to the ways it doesn't.

And this just doesn't look historical.

This is what Mamluk egypt looked like for a good 300 years.

Your real problem seems to be that you find it weird when white people wear turbans. I mean fine I can genuinely accept that, but just come out and say it. There are plenty of historical examples of what you're describing, and mental gymnastics like "nobody from brittany was a lord during the crusades" is just ridiculous.

Incidentally, did you know that Anna Comnena (probably the most important contemporary source for the 1st crusade) calls all of the crusader lords Celts, and that she describes almost all of them as being pale, blonde or ginger?
 

EverKira

Recruit
I keep coming back to: you would enjoy the game more if you appreciated it for what it is, a work of fiction completely divorced from reality, instead of demanding that it uphold some arbitrary idea of "realistic" that it can't manage because (again) it is a work of fiction completely divorced from reality. Instead of accepting this easy to understand fact, you throw a temper tantrum demanding that the devs fix something that is only a problem because you demand realism from your game that isn't real in the slightest. So instead of accepting the game as it is, you start these long winded threads about "realism" in order to make the game worse for the rest of us.
 
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