To my fellow mount&bladers who are disappointed at TW atm, on TW's business mode

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daxiapi777

Sergeant
It's been almost 9 months into the EA of Bannerlord. A lot of players have expressed their concerns, disappointments or even anger towards not only the current sate but also the prospects of the game as well as Taleworlds, the developer. I hope this thread will help people understand the situation and adjust their expectations. Important to notice though that this is just my opinions or conclusions that are not necessarily reflecting the truths.

Conclusion ahead: stop hoping that Bannerlord will turn out to be even close to your dream game, wait for mods and be prepared to pay for some of the better ones.

So I think a lot of people have already realized that there might be a discrepancy in the visions of devs and those of the players as to what this game should grow into. I would argue that this is due to TW's (kind of) unique business model, which, using terms of economics, relies heavily on positive externalities.

TW has created a unique and enjoyable mounted combat experience which, throughout the years, has developed into a fully-fledged sandbox game. However, a lot of we probably noticed that although the combat experience is quite good and unique, the sandbox part is very much in the lacking. This is perhaps because of TW's specialization and business model. Essentially, the community consists of two kinds of players: those who prefer the combat and those who prefer the sandbox/rpg experience. (Of course, there would be overlappings, but this dichotomy is important for marketing and developing strategies and thus for our discussion) TW is good at delivering first-class mounted combat experience but significantly less so, especially when compared to other developers, at delivering the other one. Fortunately for them, their game created huge possibilities and room for mods a majority of which have enhanced the sandbox department.

I think we can all agree with the previous section, as it's kind of obvious to veteran players. What's interesting is the implication of that. These mods are translated into positive externalities to the M&B games as they added great values to the product without the devs paying extra costs. Therefore, TW as a business is left with a very clear and viable strategy: focusing on the combat while trying to create a good sandbox base for modders. In lieu of the boring functions, just think like this: better engine and base -> better mods -> attract more players -> sell more copies/base; and better combat -> more players -> more copies sold. This is most likely the reason why TW intentionally wants Bannerlord to mainly be an action game (yes, that's most likely their vision for the game). Because they can leave half the work to modders, most of whom work for free, for free positive externalities, and better serve the players who prefer combat, and in the meantime try to appeal the wider audience (more action-based and fast-paced gameplay tends to accomplish that). In the business model, I would argue both the players and TW are the winners whereas the only losers, economically, are the modders before they start to charge for their mods or work out some agreements with TW.

Therefore, the best strategy for players would be: stop asking and expecting TW to deliver a better RPG/sandbox/strategic/etc. experience and waiting for mods while accepting the fact that the M&B franchise will turn into even more action-based and fast-paced games. And it would only be a matter of time before the mods stop being free, either through adding a price tag themselves or being incorporated into the TW business system and thus increasing the price of the base games.

Unfortunately, this thread might be nothing new to especially the veteran players (a lot of us already realized it and either give up the hopes or refuse to accept). Nonetheless, if it can help some members of the community be less disappointed and angry, and lead a more comfortable life, I will be a very happy man. I used to be that guy who cares too much thus concerns too much, now that I realize and accept it, I still care but am having a much easier time.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Therefore, the best strategy for players would be: stop asking and expecting TW to deliver a better RPG/sandbox/strategic/etc. experience and waiting for mods while accepting the fact that the M&B franchise will turn into even more action-based and fast-paced games. And it would only be a matter of time before the mods stop being free, either through adding a price tag themselves or being incorporated into the TW business system and thus increasing the price of the base games.
Naw how about we all continue to provide good constructive suggestions and express our opinions (especially reasonable disappointment). TW can take what they think fits into their vision of bannerlord and leave the rest. It is safe to say there are several people here who have impacted the trajectory of bannerlord by providing amazing and even simple suggestions to TW. TW went into EA so they could take our feedback into consideration before calling the game final. If they only take 1% of suggestions, but it makes the game better it will be worth it for everyone. You are right though people shouldn't expect their suggestions to make it in, but even if the full idea doesn't make it in it can have an impact on how other features function.

Obviously modders will create amazing variations of bannerlord and i can not wait for them.
 

daxiapi777

Sergeant
Naw how about we all continue to provide good constructive suggestions and express our opinions (especially reasonable disappointment). TW can take what they think fits into their vision of bannerlord and leave the rest. It is safe to say there are several people here who have impacted the trajectory of bannerlord by providing amazing and even simple suggestions to TW. TW went into EA so they could take our feedback into consideration before calling the game final. If they only take 1% of suggestions, but it makes the game better it will be worth it for everyone. You are right though people shouldn't expect their suggestions to make it in, but even if the full idea doesn't make it in it can have an impact on how other features function.

Obviously modders will create amazing variations of bannerlord and i can not wait for them.
Of course, this will be a very healthy approach too, although I personally find it not very economical or really affects the grand scheme. Anyway, I only write this to ease the burdens of those players who are disappointed or angry because they care too much.
 

Seafoodking

Recruit
It's been almost 9 months into the EA of Bannerlord. A lot of players have expressed their concerns, disappointments or even anger towards not only the current sate but also the prospects of the game as well as Taleworlds, the developer. I hope this thread will help people understand the situation and adjust their expectations. Important to notice though that this is just my opinions or conclusions that are not necessarily reflecting the truths.

Conclusion ahead: stop hoping that Bannerlord will turn out to be even close to your dream game, wait for mods and be prepared to pay for some of the better ones.

So I think a lot of people have already realized that there might be a discrepancy in the visions of devs and those of the players as to what this game should grow into. I would argue that this is due to TW's (kind of) unique business model, which, using terms of economics, relies heavily on positive externalities.

TW has created a unique and enjoyable mounted combat experience which, throughout the years, has developed into a fully-fledged sandbox game. However, a lot of we probably noticed that although the combat experience is quite good and unique, the sandbox part is very much in the lacking. This is perhaps because of TW's specialization and business model. Essentially, the community consists of two kinds of players: those who prefer the combat and those who prefer the sandbox/rpg experience. (Of course, there would be overlappings, but this dichotomy is important for marketing and developing strategies and thus for our discussion) TW is good at delivering first-class mounted combat experience but significantly less so, especially when compared to other developers, at delivering the other one. Fortunately for them, their game created huge possibilities and room for mods a majority of which have enhanced the sandbox department.

I think we can all agree with the previous section, as it's kind of obvious to veteran players. What's interesting is the implication of that. These mods are translated into positive externalities to the M&B games as they added great values to the product without the devs paying extra costs. Therefore, TW as a business is left with a very clear and viable strategy: focusing on the combat while trying to create a good sandbox base for modders. In lieu of the boring functions, just think like this: better engine and base -> better mods -> attract more players -> sell more copies/base; and better combat -> more players -> more copies sold. This is most likely the reason why TW intentionally wants Bannerlord to mainly be an action game (yes, that's most likely their vision for the game). Because they can leave half the work to modders, most of whom work for free, for free positive externalities, and better serve the players who prefer combat, and in the meantime try to appeal the wider audience (more action-based and fast-paced gameplay tends to accomplish that). In the business model, I would argue both the players and TW are the winners whereas the only losers, economically, are the modders before they start to charge for their mods or work out some agreements with TW.

Therefore, the best strategy for players would be: stop asking and expecting TW to deliver a better RPG/sandbox/strategic/etc. experience and waiting for mods while accepting the fact that the M&B franchise will turn into even more action-based and fast-paced games. And it would only be a matter of time before the mods stop being free, either through adding a price tag themselves or being incorporated into the TW business system and thus increasing the price of the base games.

Unfortunately, this thread might be nothing new to especially the veteran players (a lot of us already realized it and either give up the hopes or refuse to accept). Nonetheless, if it can help some members of the community be less disappointed and angry, and lead a more comfortable life, I will be a very happy man. I used to be that guy who cares too much thus concerns too much, now that I realize and accept it, I still care but am having a much easier time.
Don't expect TW to fix it any time soon. They just enable combat death and nowhere to turn it off.
 

danEN

Banned
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
Well for half the mods they cannot charge for because of copyright and free use and the other half people wouldn't pay for anyway.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
agreed. i didnt even paid for this game
giphy.gif
 
This whole "people buy MnB for the mods" thing isn't really true. Warband made a lot of its sales before overhaul mods even existed, and most of the people who buy it aren't looking for mods to play before they buy the game. I mean look at how many sales bannerlord made long before any mods had materialised (they still haven't).

Mods are probably a consideration for some players, but based on mod downloads both here and on the steam forums, the "average player" is someone who buys a game on a hype wave, plays for a little bit, then lets it sit in their steam library. Game companies have proven time and time again that their main source of initial sales is from people who don't even play the game much, hence why they put all the interesting set piece stuff in the first 2 hours.


Only 50% of people even have the steam achievement for installing a mod. This is after years of overhaul mods with more publicity than the base game itself.

Also economics is psuedoscience kthxbai
 
There's still plenty of room for development. These days, 9 months is nothing and many games are going the early-access/prolonged alpha-beta stages for years. I wouldn't be surprised if Bannerlord stays in development for a few more years and then gets a steady stream of DLC for the rest of the decade. It's becoming the norm that games are live-environment development now, where the customers are the testers. The market is splitting off into two types of games - decade(s)-long enterprise with on-going development similar to Paradox model, or annual sequels/spinoffs similar to Call of Duty model. There is an outlier in-between those two extremes, but the 21st century is polarizing everything, even game development.
 

Pensaci

Sergeant
Be careful now when we no longer talking about inspiration and enthusiasm no more. But I am confidently sure they know what they are doing, satisfied and already got the fill. So it might just be fine run along down this for anybody whatsoever.

As about the point you make and the way you think or perceive, I respect as it is but it is just you.
 

MadVader

Duhpressed
Duke
M&BWB
The OP is trying to explain InternWorlds' product as a result of a clever plan, when it's simpler to explain it with ineptitude.
That rationalization looks like the acceptance stage of grieving.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
Well the developers need to hear it from their loyal diehard fanbase or else they will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance. Especially games like this or Arma -they both realize that modders will present far more fleshed out experiences so they make a BUSINESS DECISION to forgo those elements and in a very real sense -rely on the modders to finish the experience while they can just focus on core engine mechanics. Like it or not - its a reality.

Just like Arma -we have a few Devs here (mexxico) who kinda have a more similar vision as we do and try their best to flesh out some of these elements but are always fighting a tidal wave of board room opposition and pushbacks -"How cost effective is _x at this point?"
 

stevehoos

Banned
For the life of me, I can't understand how anybody who turns this game on can't see the gaping hole in every non related battle feature and the completely lifeless campaign map. As a veteran of Nova Aetas, 1257 AD, POP, Viking Conquest, Last Days Of The Third Age, Perisno, A World Of Ice And Fire, Brytenwalda and In The Name Of Jerusalem; I think I understand what depth is. Bannerlord does not have it in any way. I know there are devs here who feel the same way. There's no other game like Bannerlord on the market, I feel like I am almost trying to will myself to like it, but I know it's rather not that great. It just isn't. I have 414.6 hours in Bannerlord, most of that has been spent trying out mods like diplomacy features etc. Okay is the enemy of great, this game is okay. I think this is the direction.
 
I believe bannerlord it's like first mount and blade. Then , we get dlc like warband , may be after it - something like viking conquest. I agree with TS - don't expect too much on release.
 

WhiteEyedSh4rk

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SVC
Conclusion ahead: stop hoping that Bannerlord will turn out to be even close to your dream game, wait for mods and be prepared to pay for some of the better ones.

Honestly, all of my wishes for the game have been announced in TW plans and many of them have gotten implemented already. They have proven to me many times, that they have a similar idea of what Bannerlord should be like, like I, so I am not worried at all. I don't get why so many people are complaining about that, noone says, they aren't turning it into your dream game. Seriously, just let them do.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
My expectations and interest is only : "This thing in the game does not do what players assume this thing in game would do and/or does not function in the manner described.... could thing in game be improved in theses ways a b c d?"

That said many of complaints are basically "you updated this thing, but this thing still doesn't works right and/or is worse then before" and "been months now, did you forget about making this thing in game work?"
 

Shatti

Squire
WBWF&SNWVC
mods introduce bugs & compatibility issues
and it takes a long time to browse & read what the mods do and to know if it's compatible with other mods.
the devs goal must be to make a 100% fun independent game
 

Cri11e

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
People forget that the expectations we had was shaped by pre-release dev blogs.
Not a magical and wondrous mind of some child's boundless fantasy.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I do not agree with TW just care about combat while not much in RPG and sandbox experience. Almost every new features compared to Warband, are reflected in the campaign map and if TW would not care about RPG and sandbox experience, things like aging, death, kids (which are pretty complex and time consuming), etc would have not been added to the game.

For me it is pretty clear that devs have been trying to improve campaign experience as much as possible compared to Warband, and they just need extra time to make everything more immersive and balanced. I am not an expert with code and I have just worked in one pretty small project with python, and improving interface, dialogs (improving appearance) was the last thing I did after having cure functions working. Better scenes, better dialogs, better RPG options will be eventually added to the game, but I can understand why it is not the most prioritary thing currently.

I am just upset about devs breaking again which was fixed before and ruining SP balancing in order to improve other game modes.
 
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