To anyone who says "Buggy mess after 8 years"

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

I think you are missing the point. If the general culture pushes people away from coding, perfectly intelligent and capable people will be more inclined to go, say, to business school, instead of writing code for a game. This limits the pool of candidates that TW can choose from, and they might end up hiring anyone with minimal coding skills who is willing to come work for them.

Sure, and then again people who do stay are not those moved by societal bias and continue to follow their ambitions. Ambition and willingness to learn is more vital than initial knowledge I feel. And 8 years, more or less, is a long time to hone one's knowledge and actively apply in an ongoing development.
By OP's argument, however, TW's students aren't very ambitious at all and are easily moved, despite having taken the first step, by societal "pressure" - though that word is a bit of an exaggeration I think.

Especially since there's a good chance that many of the really good people will leave the country to try their luck somewhere else where the pay is higher and the opportunities are better.

That's mostly true, as was the case for Crytek and whoever made the first Far Cry. Nevertheless, there are still developers and coders still in Turkey, a lot of them.

One could argue that they could hire from abroad, and I actually think that some developers in the team are not Turkish. But then you have someone in the team who does not speak Turkish, working together with people that don't have great English speaking abilities. Add to this that perhaps these foreign workers will need a visa of some kind to be able to work legally in Turkey. It can get messy as well.

Haven't considered it myself.

All of this to say, OP has a point, and he lives there and knows the situation better than people who do not.

Unless he's a researcher in psychology, no he can't talk so broadly on the entire culture this confidently. Societies tend to be complex and one person's experience and life don't exactly paint a clear picture on his / her society as a whole. I've lived in Turkey for most of my childhood and still visit as often as I can (which would be approx. every 3 months, excluding the times of the pandemic) and have half my friends and family there, if that matters, but it clearly doesn't, not as much as you / he thinks it does.

That said, I would argue that a few years should be enough to at least figure out the management part of things. If after more than five years you are still kind of flaying around and scrapping a lot of the work that you are doing, you should have a long and hard look at yourself and reassess your methods to try and figure out what went wrong. Still we are not there, we don't know exactly what is going on, so at the end of the day all we can do is evaluate the game and how it evolves through time.

Your estimates would have me believe that by the time the game is released human civilization will have long fallen.
Regardless, there are some obvious problems in the development we the community can clearly see, and for which I personally see no reason in delaying an attempt to solve them asap.

 

[dukester]

... they just had to translate things/patch games to run on newer machines.

"Just", huh? There's a great documentary about them on the Internet. Check it out. You'll see how many seemingly insurmountable hurdles they faced on their path, and managed to get through that phase by sheer diligence. Nothing to sneeze at. Gesundheit!
In the times they started, in the place they started, I'm sure many a grandma said "why are you wasting your time on those silly activities?", but it didn't affect them, as it shouldn't.

How else would you explain the fact that countries like Indonesia, India and Nigeria have only made a small handful of video games, despite having had massive pools of coders for decades now?

If there's a great family/social pressure there to have a "decent" job, how come then their families were ok with massive numbers of them becoming Internet scammers?

 

[cyresdog]

"Just", huh? There's a great documentary about them on the Internet. Check it out. You'll see how many seemingly insurmountable hurdles they faced on their path, and managed to get through that phase by sheer diligence. Nothing to sneeze at. Gesundheit!

I am aware of the loops they had to jump through, several dozen copyright holders etc. but still nothing that had to do with much developing stuff, mostly "just" legal issues.
Don't get me wrong i love CDPR and i absolutely love them for GOG, but never praise anyone, especially in this industry, into a glorified god status.

 

[vota dc]

This is gonna be a very long post and I'm not a native English speaker so there will be mistakes, If there is a part you can't understand let me know

So, why TW couldn't finish their work in 8 years?! Let's start.

Taleworlds is located in Middle East Technical University which is located in Ankara, Turkey. You are probably saying "and ?" rn.

A) Coding in Turkey: First of all please don't make politics. In Turkey coding is much harder than coding in a European country, no not because Turkish people are stupid and can't learn to code. Because coding is a kinda new thing in Turkey and although we break that bias still there are many people who say "Why people are earning money from writing something while sitting, can't they just be a teacher or something?" Yes, there are people like this in all countries but in Turkey, there are just more, not like 30-40 million (There are 82 million people living in Turkey btw) but I can say at least 5 or 10 million people because they think coding is too easy for being a job or coding isn't a reliable job. As I said we are breaking this bias very fast also government support coding and encouraging kids to learn how to code

B) Gaming in Turkey: There are many people in Turkey who think like gaming is what stupid people do. They are the people who think coding isn't a job but there are also people who consider coding a job and respect to that but hates games. There are at least 10 million people who will say "Are you still playing games?" or "Go read some books don't play games" or something like these when they see you playing games (though we are also breaking this bias very fast since most of the children is already playing mobile games etc.) and it is RIGHT NOW. In like 2012 it was like 25 million. So what about MAKING games, now I'm not sure about this one but I think there are at least 6 million people who will make fun of you when you say "I'm making games" again we are breaking this bias very fast.

Now how this correlates with the process of developing isn't that important, A and B are important but not as important as C, they affect C. But A and B is mostly about losing your passion about coding, there are more people that will say "go find a real job" when you say "I'll make games"
so that can cause you to lose your passion for coding which affects mostly C.

In Italy there were more italian games and developers in '80's and early 90's than today for this attitude.

 

[dukester]

I am aware of the loops they had to jump through, several dozen copyright holders etc. but still nothing that had to do with much developing stuff, mostly "just" legal issues.
Don't get me wrong i love CDPR and i absolutely love them for GOG, but never praise anyone, especially in this industry, into a glorified god status.

We probably got different impressions from that story, then. That's fine.
I have never and will never give anyone a "god status". But why should I "never praise anyone", if I think it's deserved?
Maybe I had more appreciation than you for their success story because I lived my childhood in a similar post-communist environment and can relate to many of the difficulties they might have faced in that atmosphere.

 

[cyresdog]

Maybe I had more appreciation than you for their success story because I lived my childhood in a similar post-communist environment and can relate to many of the difficulties they might have faced in that atmosphere.

That sounds fair enough, we grew up differently and therefore appreciate the struggle of someones work differently.

 

[stevehoos]

I wouldn't say it's a buggy mess, it's just kind of stale/shallow with ideas that are not very cohesive.

 

[Worlok]

I appreciate your effort but I don't think it's necessary to go into these dimensions. Even if this would be the truth it's their internal (not public) company problem.

 

[Sheepify]

So... the tl;dr version is that Bannerlord is what it is because Taleworlds, as a company, is... incompetent?

And this is intended as some kind of defense? ;shockedpikachuface;

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Very good post thank you.

Edit: On the topic, the only bug I've had in weeks now is when you click a NPC name in dialogue and it takes you to your characters encyclopedia page. Honestly I can just let it slide because it doesn't actually change anything. There's easily 100 things i want added or changed in the game, but it's very playable now. I've been playing a very long intensive campaign (EDIT: Now Broken)and feel the base game is in good shape.

And now my 1000+ day game with 1/2 the map crashes all the time.
Reeeee tw reeeeee fix the game reee reee reeeee!

 

[badman]

also the sun was in their eyes

 

[meowwoofneigh]

This is gonna be a very long post and I'm not a native English speaker so there will be mistakes, If there is a part you can't understand let me know

So, why TW couldn't finish their work in 8 years?! Let's start.

Taleworlds is located in Middle East Technical University which is located in Ankara, Turkey. You are probably saying "and ?" rn.

A) Coding in Turkey: First of all please don't make politics. In Turkey coding is much harder than coding in a European country, no not because Turkish people are stupid and can't learn to code. Because coding is a kinda new thing in Turkey and although we break that bias still there are many people who say "Why people are earning money from writing something while sitting, can't they just be a teacher or something?" Yes, there are people like this in all countries but in Turkey, there are just more, not like 30-40 million (There are 82 million people living in Turkey btw) but I can say at least 5 or 10 million people because they think coding is too easy for being a job or coding isn't a reliable job. As I said we are breaking this bias very fast also government support coding and encouraging kids to learn how to code

B) Gaming in Turkey: There are many people in Turkey who think like gaming is what stupid people do. They are the people who think coding isn't a job but there are also people who consider coding a job and respect to that but hates games. There are at least 10 million people who will say "Are you still playing games?" or "Go read some books don't play games" or something like these when they see you playing games (though we are also breaking this bias very fast since most of the children is already playing mobile games etc.) and it is RIGHT NOW. In like 2012 it was like 25 million. So what about MAKING games, now I'm not sure about this one but I think there are at least 6 million people who will make fun of you when you say "I'm making games" again we are breaking this bias very fast.

Now how this correlates with the process of developing isn't that important, A and B are important but not as important as C, they affect C. But A and B is mostly about losing your passion about coding, there are more people that will say "go find a real job" when you say "I'll make games"
so that can cause you to lose your passion for coding which affects mostly C.

C) Know-How. As I said coding is kinda new in Turkey and making games is like that too. Armagan himself says there isn't know-how in Turkey. They know how to code theoretically but not practically, There are 100 employees at the TW RN but I'm pretty sure half of the coders are students who are still learning how to code. Armagan himself says so. He says our friends (employees) learning while making the game we also learn how to manage while we make the game. So basically Armagan is also learning how to manage, they are INEXPERIENCED


Time to check the structure of Bannerlord.

Bannerlord is a SANDBOX game.

A) Making sandbox games is harder than making linear games. There are limitless ways to play Bannerlord, I think I can say making a sandbox game is at least 10x harder than making a linear game.

B) Bug checking in sandbox games is pretty hard since there isn't a way to play, bug checking is pretty hard

There are other things that make making sandbox games harder, I'm not gonna write all of them, I can at least write like 10-15 additional reasons. Now combine making a sandbox game without enough know-how. Imagine you are a student who is learning how to code and wanted to make a game. When you say which companies are making games, in Turkey I don't think there is a big gaming studio except for TW. So students choose TW. This is like an indie studio trying to make a game like GTA, biting off more than one can chew. Don't forget there isn't a bigger studio than TW when it comes to gaming in Turkey (there may be in mobile gaming though not sure) so saying "I'm working at Taleworlds and making Mount&Blade" is like saying "I'm working at Rockstar and making GTA" in Turkey among your friends. and bannerlord is one of the biggest sandbox games out there.

Now, the classical "They made their own engine!" line. I found a video where I think a channel whose sponsor is Taleworlds (yep I just checked it) visits Taleworlds studio, the video is a little bit cringy but someone added English subtitles so you can watch it here the interesting part in this video is this, now check the date Jun 5, 2014, 2+ years after they announced Bannerlord. after 3:27 Senior Developer basically says we are developing our engine, which I think means they didn't finish the engine. I couldn't find it but I can swear I saw a video and in that video, a dude said we are developing our engine, I can't remember the date but I think it was early 2015. So I think we can say Bannerlord isn't in serious development for 8 years but in serious development for around 5 years still long but shorter (can a dev confirm/deny this?)

Also there is a communication problem between the devs and player base, I'm not gonna comment about this one, but communication problem is one of the biggest reason bannerlords status. Players like @Noudelle @Gab etc. gave incredible feedbacks in beta IIRC they didn't even get an answer.

Thanks for reading, again I'm not a native English speaker so there are probably lots of mistakes, if there is a part you can't understand let me know (I'll probably edit this thread if more comes to my mind)

After reading this thread, and despite OP's efforts, certain groups of 'intellectuals' ignore and pushed onwards to whine and spam their well established and carefully thought-out totally not biased 'logical reasoning' in this thread on why TW, a small indie company, is 'extremely terrible' and 'incompetent' compared to their more giant equals such as CDPR, Rockstar Games and other AAA companies that are simply far above them in every aspect.
Looks like the M&B community is well on their way into becoming one of the most snarky, passive-aggressive, sociopathic communities in the internet. And that's quite an achievement if I do say so myself.

 

[Sheepify]

TW, a small indie company,

This "small indie company" is, last I heard, already larger than CDPR when they released Witcher 2. Not made (because Witcher 2 started also with a handful of employees working on the engine), but released.

If you think game development studios that have over 50, and closer to 100 employee, are "small..." well.

The reason a lot of people are reacting to Bannerlord's development and release the way they had is that Bannerlord is no longer the work of a single developer (as genuinely revolutionary as the original M&B was), nor a graphical facelift done by a handful of additional employees as was the case with Warband. Not to mention that over the years the novelty somewhat wore off, and some degree of improvement of the original formula was expected.

It's a result of years of work by a large (yes, Taleworlds by now IS a large development studio), well-funded studio, that sells a premium-priced product. Hence people's expectations being a little bit more than before.

compared to their more giant equals such as CDPR

Precious.

Looks like the M&B community is well on their way into becoming one of the most snarky, passive-aggressive, sociopathic communities in the internet. And that's quite an achievement if I do say so myself.

Have you read your own post? A moment of introspection might have been in order before posting.

 

[dr4gunov]

Dear OP. Are you trying to change someone's beliefs over the internet? Stop that. It's futile

Your post is interesting, but to tell you the truth, no one really cares what are the cultural or buissness condidtions of game dev, just as hardly anyone cares about working condidtions of workers in some korean car factory when they run into petty problems with their newly purchased vehicle. You buy a product/service. If it doesn't do what you expected, you are going to be pissed.

Having said that, I notice some people expected too much. I laugh my ass off every time I read something like "this game sucks, I paid 50 euros for it and only got 120 hours with it". That's great value for money, considering some other entertaiment avenues. People here have been demanding game in any shape or form ASAP for few years. I kinda knew that when devs do that, other groups will rise and complain about state of the product. Well, life I guess.

People got sooooo emotional recently... We should all just chill. Warband was not masterpiece either, it had buggs and holes, but patches made it better. What I did was play Warband extensivly for two weeks, get bored and stopped for half a year and more. And when I got a feeling to ride on virtual stead and kill see riders again, I got back and always found fresh quest, new gameplay mechanic or something I did not do before. Also, rekindled sense of entertaiment.

I plan to do exactly same thing with Bannerlord.
Game is not perfect, but I will find enjoyment in it for quite some time. If others won't, tough titties. There is no point in changing their opinions.

 

[FallOfCabal]

So If (as OP stated) they are not able to work properly because of their Turkish culture, then just check how game development should be look like and give it to Poles (afformentioned Witcher 2) or ambitious modders or just anyone else.

Pretty amazing excuses

 

[meowwoofneigh]

This "small indie company" is, last I heard, already larger than CDPR when they released Witcher 2. Not made (because Witcher 2 started also with a handful of employees working on the engine), but released.

If you think game development studios that have over 50, and closer to 100 employee, are "small..." well.

The reason a lot of people are reacting to Bannerlord's development and release the way they had is that Bannerlord is no longer the work of a single developer (as genuinely revolutionary as the original M&B was), nor a graphical facelift done by a handful of additional employees as was the case with Warband. Not to mention that over the years the novelty somewhat wore off, and some degree of improvement of the original formula was expected.

It's a result of years of work by a large (yes, Taleworlds by now IS a large development studio), well-funded studio, that sells a premium-priced product. Hence people's expectations being a little bit more than before.

If you think 100 is an indicator that TW is some kind of 'elite' company well sorry to say your perspective is skewed. That doesn't change the fact that they're still getting used to coding a sandbox game, one of the most difficult types of game genre to make. And yes their culture and how the average Turk views games and coding definitely has a role to play on their slow progress. You and your elitist ilk just kept on whining and making the most elaborate sophisms and mental gymnastics to drag TW and BL down to your subpar values.

Have you read your own post? A moment of introspection might have been in order before posting.

Precious.

lmao you're definitely a snarky sociopath.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

If sandbox games are so difficult to make why are practically all sandbox games indie titles made by tiny teams, while all the 100 million massive budget games are cinematic and basically linear? Bannerlord is one of the biggest budget sandbox games of the last decade.

 

[meowwoofneigh]

If sandbox games are so difficult to make why are practically all sandbox games indie titles made by tiny teams, while all the 100 million massive budget games are cinematic and basically linear?

You should have read OP's post on the first page, otherwise you wouldn't have made your post that regurgitate the same basic nonsense from other whiners.

Bannerlord is one of the biggest budget sandbox games of the last decade.

lol so what about it being 'one of the biggest budget sandbox games of the last decade'? So is GTA5. No one outside of the devs gives a damn about how big a game's budget is.

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

No one outside of the devs gives a damn about how big a game's budget is.

 

[Sheepify]

If you think 100 is an indicator that TW is some kind of 'elite' company well sorry to say your perspective is skewed.

I invite you to show me where I wrote anything about "elite" status of Taleworlds.

I disagreed with your unfounded assertion that a company with over 50 employees (at the last information available, closer to 100 and still hiring) is a "small" developer. I even gave you a direct example of somebody else in the industry releasing a highly acclaimed full-blown narrative game (which just happens to be more difficult to create than an "emergent gameplay" title), in around 4 years even if you count pre-production, with a smaller team than that.

That doesn't change the fact that they're still getting used to coding a sandbox game, one of the most difficult types of game genre to make.

And that's no excuse. Do you think the Poles that made Witcher 2 weren't "still getting used to coding a game" when they built a custom-made engine for Witcher 2? Because their previous work was pretty much moding - Witcher 1 was ran on NeverwinterNights' Aurora engine. Pretty much comparable to Viking Conquest - they got something that worked, they moded it, released it as a stand-alone game. Then went on to make another game, this time on their own engine built from scratch, within 4 years, with fewer people. In a country that also still largely saw games as "kids' stuff," so your excuse of "but muh cultcher" has about as much validity as the rest of your claims. People who are passionate about what they do don't give a flying fig about what others think about it - and people who do, are NOT passionate, or at least not enough.

Also, as others already elaborated to you in detail, sandbox games are anything but "the most difficult type of games" you can make, yet you keep pushing that false narrative.

And yes their culture and how the average Turk views games and coding definitely has a role to play on their slow progress.

In business, there are no excuses. There are problems, and solutions, and if you're not willing to recognize the problem, you won't find the solution.

In fact, you can use direct comparison between Taleworlds and CDPR, because they pretty much went through the same stages. Runaway success on original title, follow-up trying to nail down that success, then the third title building up on all that experience. In one case much better than the other. Both companies in countries that, prior to their existence, had no meaningful presence in the industry.

But sure, somehow Turkey is unique in all the world because of... have you even considered what you claim? That somehow it's such a backward country that incompetence is the norm, nobody can work profficiently with somewhat-new technology, and things like that? Think before you write, because this is obviously hilariously inaccurate, and downward offensive.

You and your elitist ilk just kept on whining and making the most elaborate sophisms and mental gymnastics to drag TW and BL down to your subpar values.

And your contribution is... what?

certain groups of 'intellectuals' ignore and pushed onwards to whine and spam their well established and carefully thought-out totally not biased 'logical reasoning' in this thread
[..]
Looks like the M&B community is well on their way into becoming one of the most snarky, passive-aggressive, sociopathic communities in the internet. And that's quite an achievement if I do say so myself.

If you genuinely see no conflict between what you write and how you write it, well...

lmao you're definitely a snarky sociopath.

There's a term for this. I believe it starts with a "P":

Psychological projection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

tl;dr: You rode into this thread on your white horse, full of righteous wrath, and "contributed" to it by accusing others of doing exactly the same thing you are, while offering laughable (and already discussed) "arguments" to validate your position. Then proceed to dismiss all the information already presented in this pretty short of a thread, because you're undeniably "right" by the mere effort of "defending" Taleworlds' honor. While throwing lines that amount to ethnic and cultural denigration.