Thoughts on a quick game.

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A comment about First Aid.

Currently I have First Aid at 9+3, which while not maxed allows me to comment on how it plays already.  My companions are very often my only ranged support, so to be sure that they spawn I need to keep them at the top of the list.  In all my former games where I had a maximum of 10 First Aid I was reluctant to do that. 

The way my sieges usually go is that I often soften up the defenses before I decide to go for it.  That means one or two rounds of ranged battle before we go for melee at all.  My companions would quite often end up being knocked out during this stage.

And then we spawn on the streets, which could mean one more knockout, and then the final fight in the keep.  So it's me plus two barely alive companions against 5 often top melee troops.  That blows! Depending on spawn points it wasn't unusual that both of my companions went down before I even joined the fight.  I much preferred to have full health knights as my support.

But with very high First Aid it doesn't play so badly.  Currently they regain 70% of their health, so even after two knockouts in a row they still can withstand a few hits and at least distract the enemies if not simply mop the floor with them.  Full health knights would still probably be better, but it's not as bad as it used to be.  In part obviously due to maxed Wound Treatment, which heals them between battles faster.  All medical skills work in some sort of synergy by seemingly amplifying effectiveness of each other.

Oh, a disclaimer.  I attempt above conclussions by unscientifically comparing how this would play if I didn't invest so heavily in medical skills myself and it was my usual game.  By this time I would have all of them much lower.  Wound Treatmen and Surgery at 8 instead of 14 and First Aid at 8 instead of 12.  Any difference is actually amplified when compared to a later stage of the game, but those differences are real nonetheless.
 
So I'm a little bit further into the game, and I thought I'll give a quick update on how it all plays.

First, I level up much quicker than I expected.  Despite having less than mediocre stats, I do get kills.  Mostly in sieges with my crossbow, but I'm far from useless with a great sword on foot or with a long awl pike on a horseback.  Sure, a necessarily strong archer would get more kills, and definitely would be better at dispatching of enemy archers, but I don't do bad at all.  Overall it's definitely worth it, because even if I take more casualties, few of them actually die thanks to maxed medical skills.

Secondly, I finally started investing my points into Trainer skill, and I'm quite unsure if it's all worth it.  I did it because it seems I can bump my INT as far as I want, and I didn't expect that.  Since I have so many points available I decided to sacrifice bonuses at Spotting to get some training, but the thing is that it doesn't seem to make enough of a difference to justify it.  I train my troops mostly during peacetime and all the time during fighting.  When I go to war I load up on already trained troops and rarely have any time to spare.  Fighting constantly and all. 

If I invested those four points into Spotting I'd have 10+4 instead of 8+2 which would give me 40% longer radius.  That (let me check...) would double the area of my vision.  So, in the end, I think it was a mistake.  23 points of XP per unit per day are not really worth it.  I can train all the troops I want during peacetime anyway, and at war I rarely will see any serious effect, as shared XP and my companions seem to do well enough without those 23 points extra.  Honestly, I suspect that I gain more shared XP per day that those 4 points yielded me in total.

So if I will ever try another similar game, I'll probably go for Spotting and Tactics before putting any points into Trainer.  Those bonuses are obviously worth it.
 
I'm up to level 22 with my INT attempt but I decided to pump Trainer instead of Spotting (Deshavi already has 7+1 and will end with 9+2) and I think it's paid off. One more level and I'll max Trainer (9 +book) for 80 points of training. I agree 23 isn't worth much but training is end-loaded and 80 pts makes a big difference in Companion leveling; my companions are already about 2 levels higher than usual and this has a bootstrap effect since they're all Trainers too. They will eventually have about 3-4 extra levels which I think is worthwhile. The extra Spotting would be nice though, I'll admit.
 
Hi, I have a couple of noob questions regarding these quotes.

bakters 说:
At 14 in Engineering

bakters 说:
Currently I have First Aid at 9+3

1. How do you get to 14 in secondary skills? I thought the limit was 10?

2. What does "9+3" mean? What is the +3?
 
The player gets a bonus on Party skills. +1 for 2 skill, +2 for 5 skill, +3 for 8 skill and +4 for 10 skill. Thus, if you have 10 skill in something, you get 4 extra bonus points. This works for companions too. For example, if a companion has 8 skill in something and you have 5, the companion will get the +2 bonus for 8+2.
 
fragonard 说:
I'm up to level 22 with my INT attempt but I decided to pump Trainer instead of Spotting (Deshavi already has 7+1 and will end with 9+2) and I think it's paid off. One more level and I'll max Trainer (9 +book) for 80 points of training. I agree 23 isn't worth much but training is end-loaded and 80 pts makes a big difference in Companion leveling; my companions are already about 2 levels higher than usual and this has a bootstrap effect since they're all Trainers too. They will eventually have about 3-4 extra levels which I think is worthwhile. The extra Spotting would be nice though, I'll admit.
Lots, as always, depends on playstyle so what works for me doesn't have to work for others and vice versa.  But with all that being said I agree that between spotting and early investments in Trainer is a tough call.  Both are useful, both can yield huge dividends in XP.  I use spotting to save time during bandit-hunt stage of the game, so it was the first party skill I invested in.

But that's just me.  This game is complex enough to allow for many quite different and equally effective playstyles.
 
fragonard 说:
The player gets a bonus on Party skills. +1 for 2 skill, +2 for 5 skill, +3 for 8 skill and +4 for 10 skill. Thus, if you have 10 skill in something, you get 4 extra bonus points. This works for companions too. For example, if a companion has 8 skill in something and you have 5, the companion will get the +2 bonus for 8+2.

Played for several years and had no idea about that. Thanks for the info!
 
Just a quick status update and some musings about the realm of possibilities.

I'm at the day 169 in-game and I just finished the third faction.  People's Republic of Spidonia consists of 78 centers, so nearly half of the map is mine.  Which made me think that finishing the game before day 200 should be possible with expert gameplay and a bit of luck.

My current game was definitely not optimized.  First, I was very rusty when I started.  Second, I imposed some additional challenges upon myself, which did slow me down up to now, and will slow me down even more in the future.

But what if you simply played to win?  Putting every lord in prison and maybe even refusing ransom offers?  Joining a faction, taking castle after castle, then some cities until the king finally refuses you something, which makes you start with possibly a third of the map under your command?

Well, 200 seems quite doable under those circumstances.  There are people who can take a city with a lvl 10 character... 
 
Just a quick status update.

Day 191 and I'm done with fourth faction.  Mopping up took some time, but they are finally gone.  I personally own 2/3 of the map.  Two remaining factions are Sarranids and Rhodoks.  If nobody will declares on me within days I'll probably go after Sarranids, who should be a cakewalk because all difficult to take fortresses defected to Khergits and I already own them.

So i'm quite sure now that it's absolutely possible to finish the game within 200 days if you don't play for a 100% honorable conduct and take lords.  Taking lords actually shouldn't help all that much, but it might if you reinforce them with your own troops.

Edit: Sure enough Rhodoks declared on me a day later.  Now I'm taking their land, but I didn't meet the main army, so I don't really know yet how this war will go.  It might take some time, or I will finish them before day 200.  We'll see.
 
bakters: do you play realistic (no quitting without saving)? If so, very impressive!

bakters 说:
Taking lords actually shouldn't help all that much, but it might if you reinforce them with your own troops.

I have a question about this quote. What do you mean by reinforcing captured lords with your own troops? I don't understand.
 
You can give them troops if you talk to them.  This way if you happen to have a lord with high relations to you, he can have a very powerful army.  They don't suffer any morale problems so it would often make sense to offload some troops to them.

But if you don't micro-manage them a lot, they tend to just lose all those units.  Although one or two could surely help sometimes.

Edit: I somehow missed your first question.  I play with quitting without saving and I use it a lot.  That's how I figure out all those strategies I described recently.  Theoretically it should be possible to just know all of that, but I don't know it.
 
You made me think about this "no quitting without saving" deal.

I figured out that I could do it if I could keep an alternate save to try things out.  It's not possible from within a game, but you can duplicate saves from outside of it.  I would have to use this feature a lot.  Otherwise this game is way to random. 

What map it is?
Where do they spawn?
Where do we spawn?
What kind of AI am I dealing with?
What event is it going to be?
Did they move far enough away from the village, so that we fight in the field instead of a village?
Do I have enough time before dark for one more go at the castle?
Will there be "storming the keep" kind of event this time around?  And if so, what kind of map, troops, how many, where they spawn and all that?

To be perfectly honest, I think that "no quit without saving" is better suited for role playing type of game, not for powergaming race to the finish.  It's just too random and in the end you don't know if someone was fast because they were good, or just lucky.

And I don't think I'd accept being taken prisoner anyway.  I'd lose all my trainers for a long time.  This penalty is so harsh for this type of game, that I suspect that you'd have to start over.  I've seen an Insane playthrough of Whicher 2 where the player started over three times until finally finishing. 

Seriously, I'd probably play a solo game under those circumstances.  I could claim the credit for added difficulty and I could take a beating once in a while without ruining the save too much.
 
Hmm yes, I too can't help but reload a lot when things don't go right, for those exact reasons that you mentioned. But I do feel like I am "cheating" when I do it, it's no hard task have a good game when I can manipulate every course of events like that. From a speedrunning point of view especially, saving and reloading seems dodgy.

Although the game is probably a little too luck dependent for proper speedrunning anyway.
 
Actually, save-scumming is fine for speedruns, as long as you say that's what you are about to do.  It even has a jargon name and it's called luck manipulation.  Which boils down to reloading at particular point until you get what you want from random number gods.

You'd do that for example at the game start, until you get tournament in Praven, plus maybe some good weapons in shops.  It's fine to do that, as long as you don't hide the fact.

Now, I'm not really speedrunning.  I'm not serious enough about the whole business of it to dedicate enough time to do it properly, but I want to comment on one quite common and quite wrong perception.  People often think that because a speedrunner takes the easiest possible course of action at every point it all is easy.  It is not easy.  Not by any stretch of imagination.

You just have to try it and see fro yourself.  I bet you that simply trying to finish before day 400 (which is easy enough) will make your game much more difficult than you expect it to be. 

Let me give you an example.  Recently I took on almost 1200 of mostly Rhodoks in a field battle.  I won fair and square, no reloading and all that, but if I wasn't racing I would not do that.  I lost few initial rounds and started winning later on when my First Aid and Tactics started to tell the difference.  It was a close call and a difficult battle, which I would normally avoid at the cost of some lost time.  At the very worst I'd wait till my army recovered from former battles...

And it's like that all the time.  You will always run on the border of what's currently possible for you, just to be quicker.  That is the only way I know of which makes this game consistently and significantly more difficult.  Any other way makes it simply longer.

Oh, one more thing.  At any point in this huge battle I could simply retreat.  There was no danger of being taken prisoner.  I'd do the same on realistic saves too.
 
So I finally finished the whole playthrough by day 230 in game.

Several comments.

1.  The ending stages weere boring.  Mostly I was just looking at the dots on the map and drinking beer...  So in case of typing errors, bear with me.  I type with one eye closed to see the screen clearly...
2.  There was a bug in the game, which made perfectly lordless conduct impossible.  I made every effort possible to prevent lords joining me, but some joined nonetheless.  Then they got defeated and I rescued a few.  No matter what I said to them then, they joined my kingdom.  No way to prevent this, not my fault.  I finished with 2 or 3 lords this way (don't exactly remember, no matter).
3.  Mopping up took about a week.  I made an unnecessary peace with Rhodoks after I took all their land, because I suspected a bug, but there was none, so I had to make war on them again and hunt them down.  No biggie.  About a week delay, that's it.
4.  I took prisoner two lords by misclick.  I didn't bother releasing them afterwards, but they were out of the game for a while, so my "release every lord you can without suffering a relation loss" conduct got broken too.  No biggie, again.  I can live with a misclick.

5.  But overall it all worked.  The last real faction were Sarranids, and they were capable of mounting up quite a resistance.  They showed up at Narra with a force of 1700, for example.  So in the end it wasn't as boring as other games, and I'm glad of it.

So, in summary, a fun playthrough, my shortest time too, despite extra challenges.  Sub 200 is obviously possible.

Is sub 150 possible too?  Maybe... I don't know.  I'll try an unappologeticcaly quick game some other time, without any restrictions on how I play it.  I'll see where it will take me.
 
Character level: 37
Health: 47/47
Experience: 1238002
STR: 12
AGI: 12
INT: 41
CHA: 6

One handed: 201
Two handed: 269
Polearms: 278
Archery: 118
Crossbows: 378
Throwing: 117
 
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