Thought experiment, alternate history:

[Comrade Crimson]

Hey folks, I got a thought experiment for you.

Notes will be taken from this experiment to help me with potential brainstorming of a project I intend to do.

The question here today is:


What if Hitler never existed, and the Nazi's never took full power of the German Weimar Republic?


Note: This is for a serious project/mod, so please- be serious in your thoughts, or at least creative!

And for the sake of this question, we will confine it to the effects of from 1920 to 1960. From 1920 to 1960, a span of 40 years-

Benito Mussolini still exists, Francisco Franco (and counterparts) still exist, Imperial Japan is still ruled by their military regime, and the Soviet Union is still a presence. The Great Depression also still is underway, the only difference of this timeline is that at 1920, Hitler had never existed and the Nazi's had failed to gain enough momentum to take over Germany. The outcome of any and all wars from 1920 on is sort of "undecided" so take what you will on what would logically happen.

But I will clarify here. They (the Nazi party) could still potentially exist in this timeline- its just they don't have enough power to achieve it as they did in our history. That can still mean they might achieve power... But detail that for me if you believe that! Or detail why they wouldn't exist if you believe that to be the case!

What would you think would happen?

Edit: Also, alternate of a alternate just for fun (but this is secondary to the first question in priority!) What if Hitler succeeded as a painter and focused his energies on that?


I have my own theories and thoughts about this too, but I want to hear what you guys think first and examine it as a whole.

 

[Untitled.]

If Mr. H had become a painter He would use His considerable wealth to build a dungeon where innumerable Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and other deviants would be held. He would also influence the art scene to the point where abominations such as cubism and pointillism would be banned for all eternity. After years of success He would move on to the architecture scene and become revered as a God. No more buildings would be built before being approved by Mr. H. Even after his death, creating things are punishable by being ****ed in the ass publicly.

Mr. H also moves to London and, together with His artist friends, stages a coup. In 1939 He declares war on the Weimar Republic, which has fallen to a communist revolution. After winning the war, His regime rewrites history to portray the Germans as the bad guys. By 1960 the last free Germans are being hunted down in order to be placed in internment camps.

 

[Comrade Crimson]

If Mr. H had become a painter He would use His considerable wealth to build a dungeon where innumerable Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and other deviants would be held. He would also influence the art scene to the point where abominations such as cubism and pointillism would be banned for all eternity. After years of success He would move on to the architecture scene and become revered as a God. No more buildings would be built before being approved by Mr. H. Even after his death, creating things are punishable by being ****ed in the ass publicly.

Mr. H also moves to London and, together with His artist friends, stages a coup. In 1939 He declares war on the Weimar Republic, which has fallen to a communist revolution. After winning the war, His regime rewrites history to portray the Germans as the bad guys. By 1960 the last free Germans are being hunted down in order to be placed in internment camps.

One theory for the artist bit.

The main question still stands though with the original "What if Hitler never existed and the Nazi's never took power?"

 

[Almalexia]

Well, for better or for worse the German offensive into Russia was enormously destructive in both military and economic costs, and while it would provide justification after the fact for the Soviet's hegemony in East Europe, the Soviets already had plans for their occupation there, and had already made their move on it in 1939. Without the invasion to weaken the USSR under Stalin and with the weak Weimar government abiding under the Versailles treaty, if the Soviet Union had progressed to its ideal state of war preparation by 1942, we might have seen a more general invasion of Europe, this time not from Fascism, but from Communism. With less moral high ground, to be sure, but I'd say it've been likely.

 

[Comrade Crimson]

Well, for better or for worse the German offensive into Russia was enormously destructive in both military and economic costs, and while it would provide justification after the fact for the Soviet's hegemony in East Europe, the Soviets already had plans for their occupation there, and had already made their move on it in 1939. Without the invasion to weaken the USSR under Stalin and with the weak Weimar government abiding under the Versailles treaty, if the Soviet Union had progressed to its ideal state of war preparation by 1942, we might have seen a more general invasion of Europe, this time not from Fascism, but from Communism. With less moral high ground, to be sure, but I'd say it've been likely.

How would you think all the other nations would react, and in tangent with each other?

Fascist Italy would still be around... and the question of what would happen in Spain and Ethiopia is still very much up to thought here.

How would Fascist Italy and possibly Spain, depending on outcome of its civil conflict interact with the rest of Europe?

Especially if the Soviets did commence an invasion in 1942 as you said across Eastern Europe, driving westward?

China is still in civil war during this time too, and Japan's militarized regime is still prevalent- and possibly invading China like in our real timeline.


Note, don't mean to weigh on you too heavily- im just incredibly interested to the thoughts with this, im already getting a lot of good sort of brainstorming and thinking with this already.

 

[Mad Vader]

I think that Germany would still emerge with a right-wing authoritarian government that would ban the Communist party there, at least until the worst of the Depression is over and the crippling debt is renegotiated with the help of American bankers.
If Western Europe remains at peace and is interested in keeping the balance of power, they might do something forceful about Italian adventures in Africa and the Balkans. The Soviets are still likely to invade Finland and annex the buffer zone they need there, but may look for a broader settlement about Poland with Germany, Britain and France. A war there may be avoided at the expense of Polish territory ceded to the Soviets and the Germans to appease their butthurt over WW1 settlements. And then, there might be peace for our time and rainbows.

 

[Comrade Crimson]

I think that Germany would still emerge with a right-wing authoritarian government that would ban the Communist party there, at least until the worst of the Depression is over and the crippling debt is renegotiated with the help of American bankers.
If Western Europe remains at peace and is interested in keeping the balance of power, they might do something forceful about Italian adventures in Africa and the Balkans. The Soviets are still likely to invade Finland and annex the buffer zone they need there, but may look for a broader settlement about Poland with Germany, Britain and France. A war there may be avoided at the expense of Polish territory ceded to the Soviets and the Germans to appease their butthurt over WW1 settlements. And then, there might be peace for our time and rainbows.

How would Spain be handled you reckon, and the situation with Japan and China?

 

[Mad Vader]

Spain will sink into the sea making Portugal an island, while Japan and China will be invaded by Canada. No idea.
It would help if you are looking for a distinct flavor - another WW? general peace? someone getting a better deal than historically?

 

[Dystopian]

I think that Germany would still emerge with a right-wing authoritarian government that would ban the Communist party there, at least until the worst of the Depression is over and the crippling debt is renegotiated with the help of American bankers.
If Western Europe remains at peace and is interested in keeping the balance of power, they might do something forceful about Italian adventures in Africa and the Balkans. The Soviets are still likely to invade Finland and annex the buffer zone they need there, but may look for a broader settlement about Poland with Germany, Britain and France. A war there may be avoided at the expense of Polish territory ceded to the Soviets and the Germans to appease their butthurt over WW1 settlements. And then, there might be peace for our time and rainbows.

Peace? Bah.

 

[Comrade Crimson]

Spain will sink into the sea making Portugal an island, while Japan and China will be invaded by Canada. No idea.
It would help if you are looking for a distinct flavor - another WW? general peace? someone getting a better deal than historically?

Nah, im mostly garnering as to your's and everyone else's thoughts as to what'd happen with all this stuff. A thorough, relatively serious minded examination.

I'll reveal my intentions as to why im asking for this about after a single page of replies... I just want to garner as many different types of feedback as possible, and what people seem to think before I lay down what I have on the table.

Tell me as to your theories on what would happen to the world at large and to specific hotspots, and what would certain nations and greater powers do with the absence of Nazi Germany rising to power as it did in our timeline. Nazi's might still exist in this timeline but they did not achieve power like they did in ours and the Weimar republic, for the most part is still in power-

Unless you guys suspect someone else took it over.

If so, detail that.

There's also the situation with the Spanish Civil War, Ethiopia and Japan+China to address.

Benito Mussolini still rose to power in this timeline, China still undergoes civil war and the Spanish civil war still happens. But the outcome of the latter two wars is under question in this timeline and the situation with Ethiopia is also, under question as to what'd happen with the larger reaction of the global community.

Germany's economic instability is also, still a thing in this universe. All the problems that persisted in the Weimar Republic in our timeline are still prevalent in this one.

And the Soviet Union is still a presence in this timeline... so that's what you got to think about.


Gimme your thoughts folks. I will confide what I plan after about a page of replies, its a pretty cool project.

 

[gaham1]

If the nazis didn't take power the second runner was the communists so I assume Germany would probably turn red. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

 

[Beny]

1. Communist invasion of the west some time in 42-44 whilst Europe is still recovering from depression.
2. Invasion grinds to a halt, when the full might of the British empire and United states arrives to help protect, around about the French border, down to the Italian alps. (Fascists would probably be seen as necessary evils)
3. Lots of people die
4. Around 1949/50, either the allies drop a nuke on Moscow (geographically difficult, maybe Petrograd) or the Bolsheviks drop one on Paris/London. And we see an armistice with favorable terms to the bomb-dropping side.
5. Japanese ambition would've lead to a US war eventually, providing the US with the war it needed to become a superpower. Probably early 1940s.
6. European empires still crumble, but slower than historically. For some reason.
7. Eventual fall of communism. Because it was ****.


That's my entirely accurate hypothesis, feel free to poke holes.

 

[Captured Joe]

1. Communist invasion of the west some time in 42-44 whilst Europe is still recovering from depression.

Poland would just defeat them again, without Germany to worry about they should be able to keep the post-purges Red Army at bay. Especially if getting help from the Little Entente.

 

[Mad Vader]

Only if it counter-attacked from space, otherwise not a chance.

 

[Untitled.]

The Polish Marines were at that time occupied with combating Space Nazis.

 

[jjjj2012]

Space nazis is no match for the polish spacemarines. It's getting into space that might cause trouble.

 

[CHIMouttathisplane]

If Mr. H had become a painter He would use His considerable wealth to build a dungeon where innumerable Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and other deviants would be held. He would also influence the art scene to the point where abominations such as cubism and pointillism would be banned for all eternity. After years of success He would move on to the architecture scene and become revered as a God. No more buildings would be built before being approved by Mr. H. Even after his death, creating things are punishable by being ****ed in the ass publicly.

Mr. H also moves to London and, together with His artist friends, stages a coup. In 1939 He declares war on the Weimar Republic, which has fallen to a communist revolution. After winning the war, His regime rewrites history to portray the Germans as the bad guys. By 1960 the last free Germans are being hunted down in order to be placed in internment camps.

I highly doubt Hitler would get very far in art. Even if his outdated work would have been produced in the era where his work would fit, he still didn't have enough skill to stand out.

It doesn't really matter if you make art that is outdated... as long as it's good.

Hitler made outdated ****ty art.

 

[Untitled.]

At the turn of the century it did matter. You made art that was acceptable. People who didn't are famous now but had ****ty lives.
This is a really strong generalization, but you get the point.
By the 20s Berlin was supposedly a lot more open to less traditional art, but mainland Europe isn't really my area of expertise.

OP also states that, in this scenario, Hitler succeeds as a painter. Thus my fully serious hypothesis built on that.

 

[Comrade Crimson]

At the turn of the century it did matter. You made art that was acceptable. People who didn't are famous now but had ****ty lives.
This is a really strong generalization, but you get the point.
By the 20s Berlin was supposedly a lot more open to less traditional art, but mainland Europe isn't really my area of expertise.

OP also states that, in this scenario, Hitler succeeds as a painter. Thus my fully serious hypothesis built on that.

Well just as a thought experiment. It was really just a secondary "for fun" question to my original one, it wasn't really serious or meant to have as much focus as question 1, but funnily enough everyone seems to focus on it rather than question one...

For now focus on the first question folks, thats what I wanna know extensively on, your theories on that stuff.

As for what this is for- I plan to do either an RTS mod on OpenRA or possibly Warband where its alternative history, or more accurately, "Red Alert 1 if taken with a bit more serious alternative history thinking." Or at least my brand of alternative history. Was asking as to what you folks think what would happen if the Nazi's never achieved power like they did in our timeline and Hitler not existing.

Which ties into Red Alert 1's plot given Hitler was erased by Einstein who time traveled. Granted I know the Red Alert series is silly as **** but I just felt like doing this because im weird.

And I noticed that game ignored Imperial Japan, (RA3 does not count!) and numerous other things like Fascist Italy (and possibly Spain in that regard) or how Germany would've still been the ****basket Weimar Republic, or the outcome of China beyond "the Soviets invaded it."

I wanted to showcase all of this in a mod project as to what'd happen.


As to my own theories:

If Hitler and the Nazi's never rose to power, Germany would've been an unstable republic. The Soviets would've amasssed their war machine unperturbed and gotten experience both in the Chinese Civil War and the Spanish Civil War, Ethiopia would've been still invaded by Italy (and ignored) because everyone else in the world is worried about the Soviets.

China's conflict I feel like wouldn't be resolved overnight and Japan, Russian and Allied forces would be in their own proxy war supporting the two warring groups of nationalists and communists in the country.

Spain I feel would still be fascist as the Italians would vouche for Francisco Franco and everyone else would be distrustful of any Soviet backed communists due to the lack a high fascist threat in the world (Which Germany was in our timeline.)

Germany would end up in civil war with the Soviets invading Eastern Europe and supporting communist revolutionaries/factions in Germany whilst Italy, Spain and the European powers would be in an uneasy, distrustful alliance with one another supporting the old government or their own rebel elements (looking at Italy with fascists in this case.)

Colonies would likely rebel more overseas and the United States would likely be neutral for most of the conflict.

Japan might invade Russia whilst it is fighting its war in Europe as it would likely take European colonies and Pacific nations as it did in our timeline with little resistance. The US might still fight Japan, but its likely Japan would potentially invade Russia depending on the politics of the situation, im very conflicted on this myself.


Either way it'd be a very messed up world I'd reckon. But one that'd be interesting.

Whats your guys thoughts on all of this?

 

[Mad Vader]

You should have said it's about a mod and not some silly fanfic, because mods=serious.
I'd begin from an entirely different perspective than realistic what-ifs, by asking a single important question:
What would make your history line more interesting than the good old WW2?

(Realism is fine, but you can get away with much if you make something fun and interesting in the first place.)