This is an open letter, aimed at revealing the China censorship going on right now by the Chinese mods,TW should be report investigate progess

[user32167]

What you call hate appears to just be rebelliousness, and without control it is useless at worst and comical at best. You just don't have a sense of humor, and it is causing you to side with control against people who don't have any.

Wrong priorities. Speech first. That's how we figure out who deserves control. We don't look to the master to learn who should speak.

Freedom of speech actually has limit and that limit usually ends when it starts causing harm to other people. How that limit is set is often controversial and trolls tend to test that boundary, cite the First Amendment or "you don't have a sense of humour" when confronted, and end up banned anyway by moderators/admins who ran out of patience.

This has been how the internet work since its inception. Especially for private companies, I rarely see trolls being allowed to roam freely in their platforms without restraint. Similar antics would've easily seen bans by Paradox and Ubisoft staff members who are usually strict about user conduct and have rules against open protests to their ruling. What seem to give trolls a false sense of security here is that they think their activities are now justified because they can use the totalitarianism of CCP to justify their basal behaviour and it seems that's not really working after all. Trolls with a banner are still trolls

With this said, I do think Winnie the Pooh pictures should be allowed and the whole threatening Chinese unity is not a morally valid reason to ban. However, all those trolls who threw racist comments around with their abusive languages deserve their perma-ban. I think a lot of MMO's do give out permabans for misbehaving users. No need to single out TW.

 

[Vindred]

Freedom of speech actually has limit

Words don't harm people.

You can't talk someone to death, but if you live in Hong Kong and you sell the wrong books, one day you will disappear, you will end up in a kangaroo court, and nobody will see you again. So it's super easy to sympathize with anyone who is frustrated out loud, or at the very least it should not be very difficult to understand. Again, these are people with no power at all. They are maximally vulnerable. The only thing they have is a voice.

The internet has not been ideal for freedom of speech because most people have very low thresholds for tolerating speech. I reject the notion that it is a demonstration of freedom of speech properly applied. How things have been is not the same as how they could or should be. You can say, "They can control speech on their private property", and yeah, sure they can. But then the question becomes why people from a society which supposedly values speech are suppressing speech on their private property as if they don't really believe in it. It's a valid discussion to have.

It is certainly easier to convince someone that you are justified in limiting their speech if they think that words and actions are the same. But equating word and act is like equating fiction and fact.

All of that said, I am not advocating for TW to tolerate every single person that I could tolerate, as that would be an unreasonable expectation. But I wouldn't be a very good free speech person if I didn't correct the bad idea that words harm people.

Negative speech helps us, because we can see one another make errors, and that makes it less likely we will make the same ones. If we don't allow one another to ever speak bad ideas, we never discuss those ideas, and without discussion, the bearer never learns why the ideas were wrong- only that they are shunned. This leads to an environment where it is safer to stay quiet and make assumptions than it is to talk about any topic which may raise the ire of the sensitive.

Another way of thinking about it is-- If you know something about how to treat other people, it's either because you were taught, or because you deduced it. If someone is never taught, and they are removed from social settings the moment they err, how will they ever have occasion to be taught, and how can they deduce the correct answer with no experience? Dogs who are not socialized when they are puppies are mean too. And these ones are just all bark, because again, they don't have any power at all to bite. How hard should we kick them?

It really is better to just learn to cope with the spoken and written word. If I can type that sentence without rolling my eyes, I have faith that the average person will one day be capable of hearing a bad word without crumpling to the floor in a mute pile of tears and nihilism.

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

Freedom of speech actually has limit and that limit usually ends when it starts causing harm to other people.

I'm sure names and people's avatars are really causing harm...??

easily seen bans by Paradox and Ubisoft staff members

Those 2 companies don't ban people for cheating for 10 years without ample proof not off goodwill, see the difference?

Ever since the anti-extradition protests in Hong Kong, there's a wave of misinformation campaign headed by a bunch of abrasive juveniles.

In the Old Guards eyes anyone who disagrees is "abrasive juveniles" just saying??

Actually believe it or not they are still censoring this fourm, my first post in this thread got delete for a vague reason "Politics" , even though this whole thread is politics in a way.

Think that's bad on the Steam forum, tons of random deleted posts and comments (Medival Movie thread really? Like I get any trolling threads, but a thread that brings the community together?) Got a Disrespectful warning for telling someone he didn't sound like he knew what he was talking about and to stay Salty my friend.
Checked with steam support and it was Developers. Oh and asking if someone wanted Avacodo toast and a soy latte, and also asking why he was threatening(or stating he was sounding threatening)

You can't talk someone to death, but if you live in Hong Kong and you sell the wrong books, one day you will disappear, you will end up in a kangaroo court, and nobody will see you again. So it's super easy to sympathize with anyone who is frustrated out loud, or at the very least it should not be very difficult to understand. Again, these are people with no power at all. They are maximally vulnerable. The only thing they have is a voice.

Exactly well stated, people go missing all the time from countries like that and they have no power except a voice and even then just talking "dissent"(Anything they dont like) is a crime.

"They can control speech on their private property", and yeah, sure they can.

To a certain degree, forums and Social media have a clause atm that makes it so that they aren't considered a "publisher" so they can't get in trouble or have complete control over posts and free speech. Essentially it's a town square of sorts.
And could be regulated by Govermemt to allow full in free speech.

If we don't allow one another to ever speak bad ideas, we never discuss those ideas, and without discussion, the bearer never learns why the ideas were wrong- only that they are shunned

Exactly. Which just leads to resentment of the shunners.

It really is better to just learn to cope with the spoken and written word. If I can type that sentence without rolling my eyes

? I rolled mine for you.
Cope is a good way to put it.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Words don't harm people.

You can't talk someone to death, but if you live in Hong Kong and you sell the wrong books, one day you will disappear, you will end up in a kangaroo court, and nobody will see you again. So it's super easy to sympathize with anyone who is frustrated out loud, or at the very least it should not be very difficult to understand. Again, these are people with no power at all. They are maximally vulnerable. The only thing they have is a voice.

The internet has not been ideal for freedom of speech because most people have very low thresholds for tolerating speech. I reject the notion that it is a demonstration of freedom of speech properly applied. How things have been is not the same as how they could or should be. You can say, "They can control speech on their private property", and yeah, sure they can. But then the question becomes why people from a society which supposedly values speech are suppressing speech on their private property as if they don't really believe in it. It's a valid discussion to have.

It is certainly easier to convince someone that you are justified in limiting their speech if they think that words and actions are the same. But equating word and act is like equating fiction and fact.

All of that said, I am not advocating for TW to tolerate every single person that I could tolerate, as that would be an unreasonable expectation. But I wouldn't be a very good free speech person if I didn't correct the bad idea that words harm people.

Negative speech helps us, because we can see one another make errors, and that makes it less likely we will make the same ones. If we don't allow one another to ever speak bad ideas, we never discuss those ideas, and without discussion, the bearer never learns why the ideas were wrong- only that they are shunned. This leads to an environment where it is safer to stay quiet and make assumptions than it is to talk about any topic which may raise the ire of the sensitive.

Another way of thinking about it is-- If you know something about how to treat other people, it's either because you were taught, or because you deduced it. If someone is never taught, and they are removed from social settings the moment they err, how will they ever have occasion to be taught, and how can they deduce the correct answer with no experience? Dogs who are not socialized when they are puppies are mean too. And these ones are just all bark, because again, they don't have any power at all to bite. How hard should we kick them?

It really is better to just learn to cope with the spoken and written word. If I can type that sentence without rolling my eyes, I have faith that the average person will one day be capable of hearing a bad word without crumpling to the floor in a mute pile of tears and nihilism.

I don't see how calling an Asian person ching chong helps them grow and see their errors. And I am also not suggesting that people who exhibit toxic behavior should be fined or arrested (although that very much happens in the real world, see e.g. https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-chinese-tourists-20170806-story.html , but that is a discussion for another thread). The way I see it, their behavior makes the game less enjoyable for the majority of users, and as such should get them excluded from the game, for a time proportionate to the offense.

I would also like to once more point out that there is a distinction between political censorship and banning toxic behavior. The two are not the same thing. Not too long ago there was a user on this forum that was posting random threads with childish insults towards China, those threads were deleted by the mods and the user is currently banned. Would you say that that was political censorship? I would hope not.

Where you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not, well that is definitely an interesting question and one that needs to be addressed directly (and quickly) by Taleworlds, since I admit that there is some degree of subjectivity involved in that (that's why we have moderators that decide on a case by case basis instead of bots autobanning people). But I hope we can all agree that racial insults fall squarely past the line of acceptable behavior. In my opinion, anything that would get you banned from this forum should get you banned from MP.

Regarding what you say about socializing, there is truth in that, but it's not like we are removing the ability of these people to interact with the world. They are being banned from a game (and I would argue that the ban should be limited to the server where the toxic behavior happened, and not be global), not being put in jail. And in the specific case of some of the screenshots that I saw, I would argue that these people knew very well what they were doing. They acted out of malice, not ignorance.

 

[Vindred]

I don't see how calling an Asian person ching chong helps them grow and see their errors.

It helps us see the errors of the speaker. And if you don't hasten to silence him immediately, we could perhaps question him and learn if there isn't some reason for his thorns. And if we can learn that reason, then we are we better off for having discussed it than if we had silenced him, including, perhaps, even the listener, since racists and the targets of their racism can easily become friends. Just take the example of mister Daryl Davis. He didn't do that by assuming a morally superior position and making them shut their mouths.

We can agree that TW will probably administer the servers in the way you describe, yes. And we'll probably be able to live with that, yes. But I'm afraid I can't agree that it is the best way for people to associate with one another. I think it's better to cultivate strong wills which can withstand words rather than to practice targeted isolation to spare people the discomfort of seeing bad ideas spelled out. But again, I've a realistic view of what will and won't be bannable. I'm a self-aware extremist.

And I am also not suggesting that people who exhibit toxic behavior should be fined or arrested

Just silenced. It's good that you're decent enough not to harm someone any further than to whatever extent social isolation is harmful, though. Good on you to that extent. Better than the you-know-who!

I would also like to once more point out that there is a distinction between political censorship and banning toxic behavior.

You can point but you are finding definition in fog. Frustrated people act in the expected way, and authorities always slip on their definitions. There is no line between the two, and the more you strain to see it, the closer you will inevitably draw to merely siding with banning anything which arouses the public disgust.

They acted out of malice, not ignorance

I think it was probably both. But I forgive them for that, for all the reasons you know.

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

On A thought. If we would have had custom servers like Warband instead of this quickplay thing a lot of these issues could have been passed, as Admins could make their rules and people could joke arpund with friends and have names and avatars that wouldn't get them a boot

 

[user32167]

Those 2 companies don't ban people for cheating for 10 years without ample proof not off goodwill, see the difference?

Paradox, Ubisoft, EA, and a bunch of companies are known for permaban trolls on their forum or games at a whim. This has been the norm and private entities are allowed to set boundaries on the conduct of their guests. I'll even cite the terms of agreement on the Paradox forum:

All administrative actions taken by the Forum Staff should be considered a settled matter. These actions include, but are not limited to: delete/close/move thread/post, banning, warnings and Infractions. Public posts against administrative/Moderator actions are against rule 2 and will be deleted and penalties liable by the user. Users that wish to contest these actions with a good explanation should first PM the Moderator. If the situation cannot be resolved to mutual satisfaction, then you can escalate the matter by sending an e-mail to: [email protected] A decision given from there is final and not subject to debate.
Source: https://support.paradoxplaza.com/hc/en-us/articles/203519747-User-agreement-Forum-rules

Let's keep on singling out TW and portraying it as the devil shall we?

In the Old Guards eyes anyone who disagrees is "abrasive juveniles" just saying

They are considered abrasive juveniles because their ultimate intent is to troll others and their misguided sense of self-entitled makes them cry like babies when they don't get their way.

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

Paradox, Ubisoft, EA, and a bunch of companies are known for permaban trolls on their forum or games at a whim. This has been the norm and private entities are allowed to set boundaries on the conduct of their guests. I'll even cite the terms of agreement on the Paradox forum:

If you would note cheating does not get bans without proof from them, as it should be.
Now yes if the Trolling has racism or sexism etc... But I've never seen anyone banned for names or avatars, that's some of the reasons for these bans even tho it was called cheating.
And they don't put it under the guise of cheating as the China Mods do and if mods tried that with Paradox it would go through a evidence phase so evidence of cheating would be shown, they don't go off "Goodwill", which is a mistake as a company/Admins.

They are considered abrasive juveniles because their ultimate intent is to troll others and their misguided sense of self-entitled makes them cry like babies when they don't get their way.

The Hong Kong protesters are trolling?
Huh funny and all along I thought they where protesting a oppressive Government taking over the Free City of Hong Kong.?? learn something every day... I'll have to tell my HK friends that one, I'm sure It'll get a laugh out of them.
That's what I was replying to was you talking about the Hong Kong protests.

 

[cvcollins]

I want an official TaleWorlds response to this. I have waited years and years for this game, played and loved and supported them throughout M&B, M&B:Warband, Napoleonic Wars, Viking Conquest... but I will give it up in a heartbeat and never look back if it means I don't have to deal with communist censorship.

 

[eddiemccandless]

I want an official TaleWorlds response to this. I have waited years and years for this game, played and loved and supported them throughout M&B, M&B:Warband, Napoleonic Wars, Viking Conquest... but I will give it up in a heartbeat and never look back if it means I don't have to deal with communist censorship.

See though, this is what I am talking about when I say that I find all of this suspicious. This person has supposedly supported the franchise for years, yet... They just barely made this account specifically to post this, and is once more labeling the whole thing as just "communist censorship", while we have already established at length that the issue is not quite that simple. I have noticed several accounts in this thread that have no posts anywhere else. Am I the only one smelling something fishy going on?

 

[user32167]

You can't talk someone to death, but if you live in Hong Kong and you sell the wrong books, one day you will disappear, you will end up in a kangaroo court, and nobody will see you again. So it's super easy to sympathize with anyone who is frustrated out loud, or at the very least it should not be very difficult to understand. Again, these are people with no power at all. They are maximally vulnerable. The only thing they have is a voice.

In the HK bookseller case, the people involved deliberately wrote books to dig into the personal life of Xi Jinping and discuss his alleged extramarital affairs. They were warned several times not to do this beforehand.
Is it right to kidnap these people? Of course not. But they sure as hell tried to kick the hornet's nest. I'd be more sympathetic if the book was about promoting HK democracy, but all they really wanted was to embarass the top leader.

Now, with regards to free speech. I'd like to note that the HK protesters are often a bunch of hypocrites. They start out with legitimate grievances but their behaviour resemble the type of authoritarianism protested against. They routinely sacked malls and subway stations due to their cooperation with police (whom they spend every moment to provoke and demonize). They also vandalized businesses that are perceived opponents of their movements. For example, this article (which reports one of many violent riots in HK) wrote:
Masked activists had also trashed restaurants run by Maxim’s, a catering firm that has become a frequent target because its owner’s daughter has criticised the pro-democracy movement. (Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...violence-breaks-out-again-in-shopping-centres)

If the HK government were the ones sacking stores of their political opponents, then that'd be consistent of the desired narrative of HK being run by a totalitarian government. But in this twisted reality, the pro-Democracy movement is the one perpetuating the political-motivated assaults on individuals and businesses. And instead of denouncing these actions, supporters of the movement rationalized and normalized these acts. And aside from politically-motivated violence, there's also the rampant misinformation campaigns being run to advertise how they got attacked by the police while downplaying all the damage and terror they've caused the city and others.

In any case, I love Hong Kong and hate Winnie the Pooh but I just can't find it in me to support this so-called "free-HK" movement. The movement has demonstrated not an ounce of truthiness, justice, or democratic value. People in the anglosphere only care about it because they are a great tool against CCP.

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

See though, this is what I am talking about when I say that I find all of this suspicious. This person has supposedly supported the franchise for years, yet... They just barely made this account specifically to post this, and is once more labeling the whole thing as just "communist censorship", while we have already established at length that the issue is not quite that simple. I have noticed several accounts in this thread that have no posts anywhere else. Am I the only one smelling something fishy going on?

Only if the Brand new (Under a month)Hong Kong/Asian/Chinese/people that have been apologizing for the Chinese admins, accounts are fishy ??
(This one is a little.) But can't just skip over their addition to the disscision cause they could be in fact a supporter. Heck I played Warband for like 4 years before getting a TW account and that was as soon as something slightly controversial happened so I could get the facts

 

[eddiemccandless]

In the HK bookseller case, the people involved deliberately wrote books to dig into the personal life of Xi Jinping and discuss his alleged extramarital affairs. They were warned several times not to do this beforehand.
Is it right to kidnap these people? Of course not. But they sure as hell tried to kick the hornet's nest. I'd be more sympathetic if the book was about promoting HK democracy, but all they really wanted was to embarass the top leader.

Now, with regards to free speech. I'd like to note that the HK protesters are often a bunch of hypocrites. They start out with legitimate grievances but their behaviour resemble the type of authoritarianism protested against. They routinely sacked malls and subway stations due to their cooperation with police (whom they spend every moment to provoke and demonize). They also vandalized businesses that are perceived opponents of their movements. For example, this article (which reports one of many violent riots in HK) wrote:
Masked activists had also trashed restaurants run by Maxim’s, a catering firm that has become a frequent target because its owner’s daughter has criticised the pro-democracy movement. (Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...violence-breaks-out-again-in-shopping-centres)

If the HK government were the ones sacking stores of their political opponents, then that'd be consistent of the desired narrative of HK being run by a totalitarian government. But in this twisted reality, the pro-Democracy movement is the one perpetuating the political-motivated assaults on individuals and businesses. And instead of denouncing these actions, supporters of the movement rationalized and normalized these acts. And aside from politically-motivated violence, there's also the rampant misinformation campaigns being run to advertise how they got attacked by the police while downplaying all the damage and terror they've caused the city and others.

In any case, I love Hong Kong and hate Winnie the Pooh but I just can't find it in me to support this so-called "free-HK" movement. The movement has demonstrated not an ounce of truthiness, justice, or democratic value. People in the anglosphere only care about it because they are a great tool against CCP.

Word to the wise: I would advise against derailing the thread too much by going into politics. That tends to degenerate in dumpster fires which get threads locked up quickly. A little bit of it is probably unavoidable here, but the topic of this thread is not discussing the political situation in Hong Kong. I am pleasantly surprised by how civilized the conversation has been so far, but if we head that direction I feel that that might change very quickly. I would suggest taking these issues to private messages, as I myself did with another user, or possibly making a separate thread in the off topic section.

Only if the Brand new (Under a month)Hong Kong/Asian/Chinese/people that have been apologizing for the Chinese admins, accounts are fishy ??
(This one is a little.) But can't just skip over their addition to the disscision cause they could be in fact a supporter. Heck I played Warband for like 4 years before getting a TW account and that was as soon as something slightly controversial happened so I could get the facts

Right, fair enough. If the trolls are here I suppose they will reveal themselves soon enough, it is after all their nature.

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

wrote books to dig into the personal life of Xi Jinping and discuss his alleged extramarital affairs. They were warned several times not to do this beforehand.

Is digging into politicians lives a crime? I heard it's called journalism. You know how many books in the West have been written to embarrass politicians?
Sounds slightly totalitarian tbh.

this article (which reports one of many violent riots in HK) wrote:
Masked activists had also trashed restaurants run by Maxim’s, a catering firm that has become a frequent target because its owner’s daughter has criticised the pro-democracy movement. (Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...violence-breaks-out-again-in-shopping-centres)

No ones saying stuff like that doesn't happen all the time even in western countries during protests.
But your wording(Riots) leaves a thought... of bias.

there's also the rampant misinformation campaigns being run to advertise how they got attacked by the police

No isn't saying that destruction happens during protests especially when it turns violent with Police but... that's off topic so let's stop derailing the post and get back to the issue. Since this conversation is very nicely civilized

 

[Duchess Rosé of Suno]

Right, fair enough. If the trolls are here I suppose they will reveal themselves soon enough, it is after all their nature.

Yeah I always take profiles under a month or so with a grain of salt or 2 maybe 3 grains but they do need to be heard still. Unless Ik the person somehow (Discord, Steam etc) then ofc that's a bit different

 

[cvcollins]

See though, this is what I am talking about when I say that I find all of this suspicious. This person has supposedly supported the franchise for years, yet... They just barely made this account specifically to post this, and is once more labeling the whole thing as just "communist censorship", while we have already established at length that the issue is not quite that simple. I have noticed several accounts in this thread that have no posts anywhere else. Am I the only one smelling something fishy going on?

Because this pissed me off enough to actually make a forum account. But yup Manchurian Candidate in reverse going on here, you caught me Inspector Gadget!

Steam Community :: collins2

ACTIVATE NPC UKRAINE MODULE 'BANDERA' v2.9.1943 LOADING...

steamcommunity.com

Are these servers in question being run by individuals/groups handing out bans for calling Xi Winnie the Pooh, mentioning coronavirus, Falun Gong, forced organ harvesting, Uighur concentration camps, Tibet, Hong Kong etc.? And, critically, are these bans enforced on all Bannerlord MP servers?
Please, I want 1000% to believe these are all lies. I am googling and what I find is not putting my mind at ease. I want to go away and happily play Bannerlord for the next decade and never look back.

 

[cheeaboo]

The only reason why people don't see through their antics is because their opponent is CCP and so whenever they are confronted with their lies, they hide behind things like Tienanmen Square, organ harvesting, totalitarian regime, etc, etc, etc.

That annoys the hell outta me like, look, few of my very close relatives were protesters in 1989, experienced the whole thing themselves, and even with stuff like this happening with people who are so close to me and there are so much emotions every time I even look at the history during that time periods (and now) I am still able to do my own research and arrive at logical conclusion that exactly who did the wrong deed, who should be responsible, who were in fact innocent, and who were the victims. And if I can do this, the average person should also be able to do this, instead of just waving the anti-CCP banners in the air as a way to express their hatred towards other groups. It makes it even worse when people literally just start copy-pasting paragraphs of slogans like "Free Tibet", "Free Falungon", "Free Hong Kong", etc. and dump them to the captain mode chat like that's the best place to protest against the CCP. Like how does that achieve anything except satisfy their urgent need of circle-jerking and annoy people who just want to tell other players to stick together and hold the bridge in front of C? Doing so definitely should not result in a ban, but TW do need to address this issue ASAP.

Freedom of speech actually has limit and that limit usually ends when it starts causing harm to other people.

This. I believe the "harassment"is the word for that. I've see quite a few people shouting the n-word in chat or derogatory words about lgbtq people, and that's just ****ed up. This definitely should result in a ban.

Still, the banning has went overboard. Banning people for using political avatars is just ridiculous, and shouldn't be done in any case. I can't think of any case in which people should be banned for their avatars unless it is a dic pic or some nazi Scheiße.

 

[Death by Diarrhea]

Man... I've been holding out of buying this game because I lacked the funds at the moment, and this game has been on my wishlist ever since I've heard about it. If China has the authority to mod the whole East Asia gaming community of M&B, I may end up not buying this game at all if that is true. I do hope TaleWorlds can let China mod themselves and the rest of East Asia be modded by another country. Now I do not have a problem if China mods ban/censor the players from China but I do hope they do not have the authority to ban/censor players from the East Asia region. I hope this gets cleared up.

FYI: I am a Chinese but I grew up and live outside of China.

 

[azakhi]

Man... I've been holding out of buying this game because I lacked the funds at the moment, and this game has been on my wishlist ever since I've heard about it. If China has the authority to mod the whole East Asia gaming community of M&B, I may end up not buying this game at all if that is true. I do hope TaleWorlds can let China mod themselves and the rest of East Asia be modded by another country. Now I do not have a problem if China mods ban/censor the players from China but I do hope they do not have the authority to ban/censor players from the East Asia region. I hope this gets cleared up.

FYI: I am a Chinese but I grew up and live outside of China.

We have said again and again that only TaleWorlds employees have access to moderation tools and none of the bans were to censor something. Unfortunately some people are still trying to make it something other than what it is and our posts are buried in all those comments.

 

[Death by Diarrhea]

We have said again and again that only TaleWorlds employees have access to moderation tools and none of the bans were to censor something. Unfortunately some people are still trying to make it something other than what it is and our posts are buried in all those comments.

Thanks for clearing that up azakhi, if that's the case then I don't see any problems then.