This is an open letter, aimed at revealing the China censorship going on right now by the Chinese mods,TW should be report investigate progess

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using racist language is still against the rules and policies of this game
Yes... cause having Taiwan/HongKong/Rona/Corona are all racist. These are examples of people's names that can/have gotten people banned.
I agree that you can express your political opinion freely.

But Bannerlord is a game, not a social media platform.

Any content that could offends and undermines gaming experience of others players, as i mentioned earlier - which also applied to Taiwanese and Hong Kong people, will be considered as inappropriate behaviour.
1 word... totalitarian. So if my steam name is Taiwan#1 and it shows that as my player name in game that's inappropriate behavior? What about a Taiwan Flag avatar? Winnie the pooh avatar? FreeTibet name? Or any number of insane things China hates?
If you see one, you would ignore it, two, well, if they don't have proof, again, ignore. Three reports, this is where it gets tough
If theirs no video/screenshot or other evidence then yes ignore away. Multiple people saying someone is cheating is not factual evidence. People report people for "Cheating" all the time when it's simply something else.
I cannot verify this but someone said Chinese players are also getting banned for insulting Taiwanese people as well.
That's a blatant lie by that person. People that have the Taiwan Flag/Taiwan name are being harassed by Chinese players if anything.
 

Emil

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There is a mix of trolling and political posts in the evidence provided, which is at best split almost even. It's not just one or two racial insults. Based on the evidence that is being provided, the opinion that I am forming is that this "winnie happy organization" is a group of people that came to this server explicitly to flame Chinese (and honestly in some cases just Asian) players, mixing political references that are known triggers for the Chinese with plain racism and trolling.
What you say is rational, and I did also state there were clearly some legit screenshots showing racism. However, the Taiwanese players has provided one-sided screenshots not favorable to them both due to some legit cases, but also because we don't know what happened before the Chinese players felt the need to report what occurred in chat. We might be lacking a main portion of the in-game chat and what triggered the blurs and slurs. It's rational to believe some are trolls, but not all, and there might've been some Chinese trolls triggering some of these events as well.

TW need to be careful of what they consider is vulgar enough to be a bannable offensive, and not jump to quick conclusions, especially if they only hear one side of the events in the chat from a biased moderator. Also, when private servers are released and tighter friend groups are formed in-game, then you will unavoidable see deeper discussions containing politics or about current world events.

By the way, there are 16,423 Steam users whose name contain Adolf Hitler, 44,568 contain Putin, 66,377 contain Corona, and so forth. Personally, I find naming yourself a public figure, especially a controversial one childish, but it's not really that offensive. If we're all mature enough to realize it's wrong, then we should also be able to meet these attitudes with words, not bans. That's how I solve issues in the NRP discord; Teach, not preach.
 
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I am Italian, so I absolutely have no stake in this.
As someone who has had many relatives die in countries(Soviet Russia and my mom was born in Iran) that Censor/Suppress the press and free speech, throws people in Gulags/Internmemt camps this is where I think you're wrong my friend.
Because once left uncorked it'll go sour and will spread. So we all have a stake in this even if you are a Westerner
 
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What you say is rational, and I did also state there were clearly some legit screenshots showing racism. However, the Taiwanese players has provided one-sided screenshots not favorable to them both due to some legit cases, but also because we don't know what happened before the Chinese players felt the need to report what occurred in chat. We might be lacking a main portion of the in-game chat and what triggered the blurs and slurs. It's rational to believe some are trolls, but not all, and there might've been some Chinese trolls triggering some of these events as well.

TW need to be careful of what they consider is vulgar enough to be a bannable offensive, and not jump to quick conclusions, especially if they only hear one side of the events in the chat from a biased moderator. Also, when private servers are released and tighter friend groups are formed in-game, then you will unavoidable see deeper discussions containing politics or about current world events.

By the way, there are 16,423 Steam users whose name contain Adolf Hitler, 44,568 contain Putin, 66,377 contain Corona, and so forth. Personally, I find naming yourself a public figure, especially a controversial one childish, but it's not really that offensive. If we're all mature enough to realize it's wrong, then we should also be able to meet these attitudes with words, not bans. That's how I solve issues in the NRP discord; Teach, not preach.
I agree, I feel that this is a very sensible way to look at things. It is no doubt a complex issue, and TW should definitely have a more clear process for handling situations like these. The only reason why I have been pushing the issue is that when this first came out opinions seemed to be strongly one sided in labeling these people as innocent victims, which I don't think is accurate, and I had the impression that not many people actually went to read through the evidence.

At the end of the day TW needs to have official policies that we can all abide to. Technically right now we can't even say for sure that plain insulting or threatening people in chat is a bannable offense, since there is no rule book. There was a post about a guy blocking players from playing with his horse some time ago, is that a bannable offense? I would argue so, but if there are no set rules, we can't really say for sure. This seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

As someone who has had many relatives die in countries(Soviet Russia and my mom was born in Iran) that Censor/Suppress the press and free speech, throws people in Gulags/Internmemt camps this is where I think you're wrong my friend.
Because once left uncorked it'll go sour and will spread. So we all have a stake in this even if you are a Westerner
For clarity's sake, by that I did not mean that I don't care. I said that to reinforce the point that I am not pro CCP, I am not affiliated to China in any shape or form and I have a lot against what the Chinese government has done/is doing. I also do not support any type of totalitarian behavior. I just felt that there was another aspect to this issue that was being lost. And I think that there is a group of Westerners exploiting this to further their own anti-Asian political agenda.
 

upsetuser

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Alright, I really should know better but I just can't stand to see people distorting facts that much. One or two cases of racism and trolling? Let's see shall we?

Directly from the "Reports for Political reasons" folder in the attached evidence.


Here we see a report for a user named CCP Virus with a general complain about "insults and hate speech towards CCP, the country and the government". There is no evidence for what the user actually said, it could have been insults against Chinese people or it could have been attacks on the Chinese government. We have no way of knowing which it is by this screenshot alone. But it becomes clear which it was in a later screenshot.


"Rather be an American dog than a Chinese man", seems pretty much like a racist insult embedded into their nickname. +1 for flaming/trolling.


Auracrow here is definitely being toxic, yes? "I will find where you live", that a brave political activist for you? +2


As far as I can tell this proves that a certain group of players was reported. Let me know if I am missing something here, I am not sure what the cropped image at the bottom of the corner is supposed to represent. I see no signs of political fight in this screenshot.


"china who carry the virus through the world", perhaps this one is more borderline since it is not a straight up insult, although it looks to me like this person is looking for a fight over a sensitive issue (start a thread like that on this forum and see how long you last). But I am feeling generous, let's consider this a case of political censorship. +1 for that.


It took me a moment to figure out what CCP Virus means here, I had to google what cnmb and nmsl mean. Spoiler alert: they are pretty heavy insults in Chinese. So turns out that CCP Virus was indeed insulting Chinese players, and not bravely attacking the government. +1 for trolling which brings us at +3.


Alright, this one is political. Once more, I suspect that if you randomly start making threads over sensitive political issues on this forum this won't go well for you, and it looks to me like this person was deliberately looking for a fight, but let's go with the policy that this should be allowed. +2 politics, +3 trolling.


I have no clue about what this is supposed to prove. Is there something in the Chinese name which is not being translated?


This proves that they have hidden content on the forum, which is pretty standard when it comes to handling moderation (e.g. flaming threads and posts here get deleted, not just locked). No points one way or another.


Someone being reported for having a politician as profile picture, definitely political and if this is the only reason that this person was reported then sure, that should not warrant a ban. +3/3


Ah, my favorite. We have multiple cases of people flaming/insulting Asian people (not just Chinese people), and those are being labeled as "victims". Way to provide objective evidence. This is the screenshot that makes me doubt really strongly that the person who prepared this files is Asian, since I don't see how anyone who is Asian could label people with this kind of behavior as "victims". +4 for trolling, althought there's multiple people doing it in the same screenshot. But let's count it as one.


Alright, this one is political, +4/+4


All I can see here is someone throwing bad words at people in main (**** ni hao ma is like saying **** ciao pizza to an Italian). +5 trolling


+1 for political. +5/+5


I agree that banning someone for using a cartoon image in general is ridiculous, but winnie the poo was actually used to spread Asian hate recently


So I would argue that this is not quite as black and white as you might think (for clarity, this is not me suggesting that we should ban people over Winnie the Poo avatars, let's go with a +6 here).

The last one is another screenshot of the user with president Xi's avatar, which I already covered before. So +6 for political/general censorship, +5 flaming.

There is a mix of trolling and political posts in the evidence provided, which is at best split almost even. It's not just one or two racial insults. Based on the evidence that is being provided, the opinion that I am forming is that this "winnie happy organization" is a group of people that came to this server explicitly to flame Chinese (and honestly in some cases just Asian) players, mixing political references that are known triggers for the Chinese with plain racism and trolling. They inevitably got reported, and their ban was grossly mishandled which lead to this whole thing blowing up. Now they are trying to play victims, and are being defended by a number of posters that suspiciously appear to have joined this forum just to press this issue (plus some others that are posting in good faith, and I appreciate that and respect their opinion). I also find it very suspicious that there appears to be a high number of Western players that were involved in this, and take issue on people with obnoxiously toxic behavior being labeled as "victims".

I do not support CCP nor censorship. I am Italian, so I absolutely have no stake in this. And I agree that TW should issue an official statement on this, more transparency is always good. But I find it ridiculous that freedom of speech is being used as an excuse to defend toxic behavior and blatant racism. Especially when we see enough of this crap on Facebook and Twitter, we absolutely do not need this kind of behavior on a game. There is already enough hate being thrown around in this world.
We missed the translation in your eight image,I'll added a label of translation in the doc later
the text in the red frame means "Wuhan virus,China virus!" and the blue list shows that he got banned for ten years too
 
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SandpitTurtle

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There is a mix of trolling and political posts in the evidence provided, which is at best split almost even. It's not just one or two racial insults. Based on the evidence that is being provided, the opinion that I am forming is that this "winnie happy organization" is a group of people that came to this server explicitly to flame Chinese (and honestly in some cases just Asian) players, mixing political references that are known triggers for the Chinese with plain racism and trolling. They inevitably got reported, and their ban was grossly mishandled which lead to this whole thing blowing up. Now they are trying to play victims, and are being defended by a number of posters that suspiciously appear to have joined this forum just to press this issue (plus some others that are posting in good faith, and I appreciate that and respect their opinion). I also find it very suspicious that there appears to be a high number of Western players that were involved in this, and take issue on people with obnoxiously toxic behavior being labeled as "victims".

I do not support CCP nor censorship. I am Italian, so I absolutely have no stake in this. And I agree that TW should issue an official statement on this, more transparency is always good. But I find it ridiculous that freedom of speech is being used as an excuse to defend toxic behavior and blatant racism. Especially when we see enough of this crap on Facebook and Twitter, we absolutely do not need this kind of behavior on a game. There is already enough hate being thrown around in this world.
the problem is some of them are reported for "cheating" not trolling/polity, and than banned for 10 years according the pic and than confirmed by adm
TW banned ppl without review the evidence lead us thinking theres censorship in this game.
which we all agree(also the one who posted the original thread on taiwanese websie) trolling/racist/politic should not be allow in the game.
when someone just illegal parking on the road you should just not gun them down.
theres disproportionate punishment given by mistake.
and thats its the point why we were frustrating.
 

helari

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Why do I suspect chinese are free to discuss the US military spreading the coronavirus and how western capitalists are at fault for this or that but when someone trolls supporters of perhaps the most evil government in the world its unacceptable toxic behavior.

The chinese certainly dont take cultural or political sensitivity as seriously as long as the hate or critique is directed at their foreign enemies.
 

Vindred

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The posts in the evidence being mixed with trolling is irrelevant. The fact is that the administrators should not be enforcing ccp standards on people living outside of china, and if someone gets banned for inappropriate speech and having a taiwan flag avatar....one of the reasons given was still the flag avatar.

I'll entertain the speculation that the winnie organization are just troublemakers. Fine. That doesn't change the basic fact that they shouldn't be banning people for having XinPing's picture as an avatar if they're living in singapore. It's dumb. It's dumb if they're trolls, and it's dumb if they aren't trolls.

Making the bans for ten years is dumb. Trolls, not trolls.

A blanket remedy of the 10y -> 1w reduction is welcome, sure. Warranted, sure. It also throws everyone into the same boat. Granted, it's a lifeboat, but they never should have been shipwrecked.

And finally, suppressing discussion of topics like these, when they clearly bear relevance to the game, is dumb.

The worst thing that can happen is that we keep talking about it, and I just do not find that to be as terrifying as some people seem to find it.
 
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The posts in the evidence being mixed with trolling is irrelevant. The fact is that the administrators should not be enforcing ccp standards on people living outside of china, and if someone gets banned for inappropriate speech and having a taiwan flag avatar....one of the reasons given was still the flag avatar.

I'll entertain the speculation that the winnie organization are just troublemakers. Fine. That doesn't change the basic fact that they shouldn't be banning people for having XinPing's picture as an avatar if they're living in singapore. It's dumb. It's dumb if they're trolls, and it's dumb if they aren't trolls.

Making the bans for ten years is dumb. Trolls, not trolls.

A blanket remedy of the 10y -> 1w reduction is welcome, sure. Warranted, sure. It also throws everyone into the same boat. Granted, it's a lifeboat, but they never should have been shipwrecked.

And finally, suppressing discussion of topics like these, when they clearly bear relevance to the game, is dumb.

The worst thing that can happen is that we keep talking about it, and I just do not find that to be as terrifying as some people seem to find it.
I agree with this , to quote JFK "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing"

Source: JFK First visit to Canada speech
 

Sincool

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I believe the best solution would be for the Chinese players to have their own server (where the "admins" apply any rules they want which conform to their laws which go against basic human rights, I'd call them crimes rather than laws but whatever fits them) while the rest of Asia has their server.
Of course the Chinese should have no access to any other servers besides their own.

Otherwise, if getting their own server isn't possible, then the Chinese should conform to the majority of the nationalities on the servers - non chinese, which brings in freedom of speech and people can say ANYTHING they wish as long as it's not insulting / offensive. The Chinese "mods" just have to suck it up in that case.
 

Sincool

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u double standards that's cool!
I believe this is a civilized place where we won't go around throwing insults at each other, right? If it's all fun and games I guess it's fine but there should still be the basic rules where you can go around insulting people on a personal level and getting away with it.
 
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u double standards that's cool!
What double standards?


The dude litteraly said that if they have their own server they can do as the please, even tho he doesn't believe it's correct(Putting Muslims in internment camps, Censoring Reports of certain sicknesses, Censoring free speech and free press is wrong)
But he also said if they don't have their own server they can't force their rules on non Chinese Nationals. What is double standard about that?
No seriously tell me @jk52 I'm curious about it.
 

Vindred

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JFK a great American President
(un grand président américain)
Sad... didn't he also say "ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country."
Yes he did.

But then he followed it with:

“My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
 

MightyFelix19

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Problem is that people are being mislead into believing its china's enforcing censorship without anything to actual back it up. These threads are just bashing China for something they can't prove they ever did. What you should be bashing is those abusive admins, where there is clear proof they have been misusing the trust put into them by taleworlds.
Right, the issue is what kind of admin would have motive to abuse those privileges? Especially if the general trend is that these admins are reporting people erroneously for criticizing China, then you’ve narrowed down your likely suspect pool quickly. The posters are bashing chinese censorship. Whether it is compelled by the CCP or it is an independent action, it cannot be tolerated.

I encourage you to read the forum rules for the guidance you seek:


Unless you are trying to say that we should ignore them?
Sadly your link didn’t answer any of those questions. Its the same typically vague nebulous ruleset that we’ve seen abused by other companies in recent years. Fair due, Taleworlds seems pretty balanced at the moment in their handling as this entire thread could have been reported as “racist” by now in a less reasonable company. My point stands. Hate speech rules are a radioactive switch waiting to be flicked. If these rules are to stand, TW should develop hard, written threshold tests to protect themselves and their customers.
 
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Sadly your link didn’t answer any of those questions. Its the same typically vague nebulous ruleset that we’ve seen abused by other companies in recent years. Fair due, Taleworlds seems pretty balanced at the moment in their handling as this entire thread could have been reported as “racist” by now in a less reasonable company. My point stands. Hate speech rules are a radioactive switch waiting to be flicked. If these rules are to stand, TW should develop hard, written threshold tests to protect themselves and their customers.
Actually believe it or not they are still censoring this fourm, my first post in this thread got delete for a vague reason "Politics" , even though this whole thread is politics in a way.
 

cheeaboo

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I believe the best solution would be for the Chinese players to have their own server (where the "admins" apply any rules they want which conform to their laws which go against basic human rights, I'd call them crimes rather than laws but whatever fits them) while the rest of Asia has their server.
Of course the Chinese should have no access to any other servers besides their own.
That's probably the only way Bannerlord multiplayer might survive in China too. TIL that Sony just discontinued their PS4 shop service in China, because apparently somebody reported to the government that the PS4 shop are selling games other than a dozen "approved" games, and it looks like the government pressured Sony to halt their service. (Source: https://www.zhihu.com/question/27422025, it is in Chinese tho.) Pretty desperate news for Chinese players, but nevertheless this tells us that TW should seriously consider hosting a separate server for China only, and let them do their thing. It sucks but there's no way TW can bend these rules in China anyways, if even Sony has to comply their rules, so this might actually be the best thing that TW can do.
 

user32167

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Lmao I’m pretty sure it is also called “Hong Kong feet” in Cantonese isn’t it? Plus I did read some story saying that it is called “Hong Kong feet” because when Hong Kong was ruled by the UK, a lot of British soldiers had fungal infection on their feet because of the humid, tropical weather of Hong Kong, not sure if they were more reliable than your claim that this name was invented by the Chinese lol.

Also if you keep digressing and keep attacking ad hominem then this discussion isn’t going anywhere. Doing so does not consolidate your point, but only undermines your integrity.
Also from Hong Kong. Born and raised as a native Cantonese speaker and barely speak any Mandarin. Ever since the anti-extradition protests in Hong Kong, there's a wave of misinformation campaign headed by a bunch of abrasive juveniles. This is where you get these ridiculous argument about "Hong Kong feet" vs "China Flu".

I'd have welcomed a constructive Bernie-style democracy movement myself, but these youths are of a different breed that bear a wholly destructive (and even self-destructive) agenda with "mutual destruction" being part of their motto (quite literally and there's a term for that in Cantonese).

The only reason why people don't see through their antics is because their opponent is CCP and so whenever they are confronted with their lies, they hide behind things like Tienanmen Square, organ harvesting, totalitarian regime, etc, etc, etc.

What's also shameful is that these people tend to not only limit their attacks on the CCP (which is the regime that's responsible for all these crimes they complain about) but they also help ferment racist sentiments against mainland Chinese people. One thing they fail to realize is that Asian cultures had worked hard over the past decades to diminish racism towards them and these folks are working to undo that social progress. Just look at all that racism shown on those screenshots as well as those extremely vulgar phrases being thrown about. It's just horrendous to see that casually thrown about.
 
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