There should be so many more banners per unit on the battlefield compared to what can be seen in Gamescom gameplay footages

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In the Gamescom gameplay videos posted by Artem and Fracas, we can barely see any banners in the battlefield. There seems to only be as much banners on the field as the number of captains, which usually range from 2-5 in the case of the enemy AI (at least that's what I observed). And no, spears with bits of cloth on the tip don't count as banners.
Even if troops could pick up a dropped banner when their comrade carrying one dies similar to archers picking up ammo (which I'm not even sure is the case), it doesn't change the fact that banners seem so rare on the battlefield as to be near invisible. My suggestion is to drastically increase the number of banners on the field from 1/captain to something like 1/every 15-20 troop per formation (if a banner is equipped) without changing the amount of the buff. Banner/troop number ratio could be higher for melee inf and cav compared to ranged inf and cav. My only exception to this would be the dragon banner, which only one should exist on the field (+ a number of generic banners). Ideally 1 Banner/10 units would be optimal but decreasing the amount to 1/15-20 for performance is still reasonable.
Honestly, the banner designs look genuinely very cool and the amount of buffs seems diverse (also apparently there are 3 tiers of each buff). However, the number of banners on the field really needs to increase drastically. For these designs to be barely visible just seems like a waste of labour.

@Duh_TaleWorlds , @Dejan , @Callum , @SadShogun - I don't know who I should have tagged. It would be great if one of you could respond.
 

Mozambique

Regular
I don't agree. One banner per formation is enough.


That's why It was so important and must be picked rapidly whenever It was dropped.

More than one in a formation would make the banner concept meaningless.

If It's invisible. Maybe a bigger banner can solve the issue.
 

MostBlunted

Banned
I don't agree. One banner per formation is enough.
Then you most likely will barely see a banner on the battlefield while fighting.

I prefer what the mods are doing (amount of banners scaling with units, of course configurable because modders do care about players....).
 
I don't agree. One banner per formation is enough.


That's why It was so important and must be picked rapidly whenever It was dropped.

More than one in a formation would make the banner concept meaningless.

If It's invisible. Maybe a bigger banner can solve the issue.
Tbh I would agree to that only in the case of the Dragon Banner since that banner is the only one that seems to be symbolic. Otherwise, banners would barely exist, especially in sieges. Onagers would probably delete your blob with the banner in one shot. This can be circumvented with the buffs from the Dragon Banner being made bonkers OP. Maybe choose and combine 3 effects since iirc you need to collect 3 pieces of the banner in the main quest or something.
 

Mozambique

Regular
One guy holding a banner = One guy that won't fight.

Multiple banners per formation = You lose the functional use of the banner. (Why would you bother to take down the guy holding the banner if you have two other guys near him holding banners which means you lose the importance of the banner)

Multiple banners = Not historical.

Sure with multiple banners you have more chance to see it in battlefield but is It worth it? You gain in cosmetics but you lose in everything else.

Anyway, If multiple banners is optional. I have no problem with it.

+ A banner must be big to be seen by soldiers.

Navarre_1745_%28Coll.Perso.%29.jpg
 
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Afaik the guy with the banner holds it in his left hand like a shield rather than not wielding a weapon. So the men with the banner are more susceptible to arrows but should go on the back of the shield wall formation - somewhat fixing this weakness. Also, historically there were probably more than 2-5 banners per 500 troops. Even if not, **** looks cool and the devs/designers clearly spent effort on them, they should be seen more often (without overdoing it, so like I said 1 banner per 15-20 men).
 
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I mean that's probably for the best since as I said, they will last longer in a shield wall formation (survivability doesn't matter in ranged formations) + imagine all the possible bugs if the unit couldn't attack or defend and instead just walked on its own. The ai would probably be need new programming - which let's be honest - isn't TW's specialty.
 
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black_bulldog

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SVC
One guy holding a banner = One guy that won't fight.
Afaik every mod or version of M&B that had this made sure that the banner was a weapon too. If it keeps the banner bearing troop from fighting then Taleworlds really dropped the ball on this.
Multiple banners per formation = You lose the functional use of the banner. (Why would you bother to take down the guy holding the banner if you have two other guys near him holding banners which means you lose the importance of the banner)
It's visual because it looks very cool and keeps the battlefield interesting.
Multiple banners = Not historical.
M&B series is based on historical stuff but it's never claimed to be historical at all.
besides
rule of cool>>>>>historical :iamamoron:
Sure with multiple banners you have more chance to see it in battlefield but is It worth it? You gain in cosmetics but you lose in everything else.

Anyway, If multiple banners is optional. I have no problem with it.
Agreed make it a slider and everyone can be happy.
+ A banner must be big to be seen by soldiers.

Navarre_1745_%28Coll.Perso.%29.jpg
:party:
 

Julio-Claudian

Sergeant Knight
Would be nice to have smaller flags as well. They've added spear flags again but since spears are never held upright I fear they won't be that noticeable.

I'm sure banner mods will have smaller banners for aesthetic purposes.
 
The spear flags do serve that purpose, and were seen relatively commonly on Artem's video. Since they fixed or improved the collision so that units stay in formation more often, imo, these spears with flags can play that role as long as they are somewhat common.
 

Julio-Claudian

Sergeant Knight
The spear flags do serve that purpose, and were seen relatively commonly on Artem's video. Since they fixed or improved the collision so that units stay in formation more often, imo, these spears with flags can play that role as long as they are somewhat common.
The spear tips are on the ground most of the time though, aside from mounted units with lances, because of the way spears are held in this game
 
True, although on Artem's video, it seems that the spears with flags are put into 2nd slot so that the spears stand straight on the back of the unit. Of course it would be better to have small flags and better banner/insignia customization but honestly, if it means that if we wont have small flags so that TW can allocate their resources a smidge better, I'm okay with that.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Multiple banners = Not historical.
Yeah, most people on this forum don't know and don't care what a banner's historical purpose was. They just think armies carried around exact copies in dozens because it looked cool.
 

Madijeis

Sergeant
WBNW
I'd prefer if units carried one banner per unit, with possibly different shapes according to formation type
mmiGP.jpg

To make it look less sparse they could add pennants scaling with unit size
 
Yeah, most people on this forum don't know and don't care what a banner's historical purpose was. They just think armies carried around exact copies in dozens because it looked cool.
Hell yeah I care more about the game looking and feeling cooler compared to being a tiny bit more historically accurate. As a middle ground, we could have 1 Banner + smaller flag/x number of soldiers in a formation.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
I'll be happy if TW adds one bannerbearer for each lord in the battle, even more if he has an specific AI to follow his lord around the battlefield marking his position as was done historically.
 

Bluko88

Veteran
One guy holding a banner = One guy that won't fight.

Multiple banners per formation = You lose the functional use of the banner. (Why would you bother to take down the guy holding the banner if you have two other guys near him holding banners which means you lose the importance of the banner)

Multiple banners = Not historical.

Sure with multiple banners you have more chance to see it in battlefield but is It worth it? You gain in cosmetics but you lose in everything else.

Anyway, If multiple banners is optional. I have no problem with it.

+ A banner must be big to be seen by soldiers.
I concur with Mozambique - one banner per formation is good enough (really banners are basically an early form of communication so Commanders and friendly troops know who's where). Having multiple banners defeats the whole purpose of a banner/standard. That's why carrying a banner was an extremely important and prestigious task.

I also agree more banners just means more troops that don't fight. 1 or 2 troops is fine, but if you make it dozens you're gonna screw up battle balance a lot.
 
I concur with Mozambique - one banner per formation is good enough (really banners are basically an early form of communication so Commanders and friendly troops know who's where). Having multiple banners defeats the whole purpose of a banner/standard. That's why carrying a banner was an extremely important and prestigious task.

I also agree more banners just means more troops that don't fight. 1 or 2 troops is fine, but if you make it dozens you're gonna screw up battle balance a lot.
The guy holding the banner can still use a one handed weapon though. He should go to the back of a shield wall formation and be somewhat capable of defending himself in close combat.

As for whether there should be 1 or more banners per formation on the field, I think the optimal solution would be 1 banner per lord per formation; e.g., if there is a 500 v 500 battle with 5 lord in each side & the 4 standard formations, there should be 10x4=40 banners on the field provided each lord has at least x amount of units for each formation type, which would come out to 40/1000=1 banner per 25 men, which seems like an okay rate to me visually. To balance it, only give the buff of the assigned formation captain's banner to all units.
 
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Madijeis

Sergeant
WBNW
The guy holding the banner can still use a one handed weapon though. He should go to the back of a shield wall formation and be somewhat capable of defending himself in close combat.

As for whether there should be 1 or more banners per formation on the field, I think the optimal solution would be 1 banner per lord per formation; e.g., if there is a 500 v 500 battle with 5 lord in each side & the 4 standard formations, there should be 10x4=40 banners on the field provided each lord has at least x amount of units for each formation type, which would come out to 40/1000=1 banner per 25 men, which seems like an okay rate to me visually. To balance it, only give the buff of the assigned formation captain's banner to all units.
Unless they do some serious trickery it would still mean that one guy doesn't have a shield, which, considering the current balance of the game, would get them killed very very quickly
 
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