There is no counter-play against kick-slash

[Firunien]

If the reward is so poor, why does every inf player currently spam kick as often as they can so long as aren't literally about to get couched? Nonsense. A free hit is a huge reward, especially considering you can combine it with pressure from a hold.

Ranged weapons have often been low risk high reward as well sure, as have been throwing weapons - which is why they've been rightfully nerfed and should continue to be rebalanced.

Right, so the game becomes about who kicks more and better as I've been saying. Again, if you like that, cool - but I don't think it's either intended or a good use of MnB melee mechanics.

Ye of course it is important if you know a mechanic better and be able to apply it then the opponent. So your only solution to break a block is hammering down the shield, i prefer to have a bit more options then one. The game is less about kicks since release.. way less, i dont know where you get that idea of an absolut kickfest thats getting worse by the day, thats not happening at least from my perspective in scrims.

 

[Mabons]

Ye of course it is important if you know a mechanic better and be able to apply it then the opponent. So your only solution to break a block is hammering down the shield, i prefer to have a bit more options then one. The game is less about kicks since release.. way less, i dont know where you get that idea of an absolut kickfest thats getting worse by the day, thats not happening at least from my perspective in scrims.

As Firunien says, inf barely gets a chance to abuse kicks in current game they just herd archers and other inf into a place for people to be crossfired/bumped over

 

[TheBard]

Ye of course it is important if you know a mechanic better and be able to apply it then the opponent. So your only solution to break a block is hammering down the shield, i prefer to have a bit more options then one. The game is less about kicks since release.. way less, i dont know where you get that idea of an absolut kickfest thats getting worse by the day, thats not happening at least from my perspective in scrims.

Well, you'd need to play the game regularly to find that out...

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Ye of course it is important if you know a mechanic better and be able to apply it then the opponent. So your only solution to break a block is hammering down the shield, i prefer to have a bit more options then one. The game is less about kicks since release.. way less, i dont know where you get that idea of an absolut kickfest thats getting worse by the day, thats not happening at least from my perspective in scrims.

It's an absolute kickfest because every match is obviously so and every time I play it is obviously so. It may be less than in March but that is a very low bar.

Well, you'd need to play the game regularly to find that out...

Would you like me to continue counting, or?

 

[Hans 77]

making kicks punishable, tightening the arcs on left and right swings and increasing the size of player capsules to reduce the "sliding" effect are all pretty important issues with the melee right now. there are other problems with cav and xbows too, which are arguably more important to the skirmish dynamic, but the melee issues are very noticeable.

the thing with kicks is that i do not see why it's enough to just be able to avoid a kick. if they land they get a free hit, so should there not be an opportunity for you to punish reckless kick spammers? yes, sometimes you can do so if you're already in a good position to get around them, but most of the time these kind of players get away with spamming their E key without any repercussions. it incites players to use outranging and to avoid getting too close to an opponent, which imo is a situation in which proper melee fights are discouraged.

The consequence-free kicking has gotten a little silly as of late.

The ability to recklessly kick -with no fear of consequence or punishment, isn't very balanced.

If the missed kick punishment window were increased, this would also increase of importance of proper decision making -an integral part of any high-level competition, be it Mount & Blade, hockey, boxing, or volleyball.

 

[KSHMR]

It's an absolute kickfest because every match is obviously so and every time I play it is obviously so. It may be less than in March but that is a very low bar.


Would you like me to continue counting, or?

As with many things in this game, once you master this trick, you will know how to avoid getting kicked more easily. But you would need to play the game regularly to find that out

My vote is against this thread too.

Edit: maybe something can be done about people that kick endlessly (sometimes I do this too) since there is no punishment. The only way people would understand how to counterplay it is by learning how to kick effectively and frequently!

 

[Gibby Jr]

As with many things in this game, once you master this trick, you will know how to avoid getting kicked more easily. But you would need to play the game regularly to find that out

Edit: maybe something can be done about people that kick endlessly (sometimes I do this too) since there is no punishment. The only way people would understand how to counterplay it is by learning how to kick effectively and frequently!

The topic is not about avoiding kicks, it's about a counter-play to kicks. There needs to be more of a window to punish kicks, particularly people who throw them out recklessly and repeatedly knowing they won't take any damage for it. Sometimes this happens if you are already mid-swing or in a good position to punish the kick but it not consistent and the window is so small that it's rarely possible to do.

Your solution is essentially for everyone to kick loads. Maybe it's because I'm used to Warband where there are many different viable styles available to infantry, but how is forcing all players to use kicks frequently interesting? I mean, for starters it detracts from the actual melee element of the game since kicks bypass the blocking system. Seems like a pretty boring solution imo. That's not to say that kicks shouldn't have a bigger role in Bannerlord than they did in Warband, although I do think that is a negative, but that the melee should not be as focused on them as it is at the moment. At the very least the recovery time after kicking should be lengthened slightly so that there's more of a window to punish kicks that miss, though ideally fixing the synchronization issue which Greed mentioned would presumably help get rid of some of the "ghost kicks" that happen at the moment.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

As with many things in this game, once you master this trick, you will know how to avoid getting kicked more easily. But you would need to play the game regularly to find that out

My vote is against this thread too.

Edit: maybe something can be done about people that kick endlessly (sometimes I do this too) since there is no punishment. The only way people would understand how to counterplay it is by learning how to kick effectively and frequently!

Me and LeRoux went and 'mastered' this trick in 5 mins yesterday, it is laughably easy.

As @Gibby Jr says, it's trivially easy to "avoid" getting kicked, the issue this thread is raising (and the issue you and the whipped ilk of BL competitive are trying to avoid), is that the meta this avoiding creates is one where instead of melee being encouraged and kicks being a sparse utility tool, we have one where kicks are the main go-to for inf to get kills because they feel like they have nothing else whilst simultaneously range play dominates especially in 1v1s because everyone is "avoiding", as you wish.

It's really funny to see the salt come from the community that grew up with this terrible gimmick which actively hurts melee - but then, we all know that's the part you all struggle with, so it makes sense.

 

[KSHMR]

Me and LeRoux went and 'mastered' this trick in 5 mins yesterday, it is laughably easy.

As @Gibby Jr says, it's trivially easy to "avoid" getting kicked, the issue this thread is raising (and the issue you and the whipped ilk of BL competitive are trying to avoid), is that the meta this avoiding creates is one where instead of melee being encouraged and kicks being a sparse utility tool, we have one where kicks are the main go-to for inf to get kills because they feel like they have nothing else whilst simultaneously range play dominates especially in 1v1s because everyone is "avoiding", as you wish.

It's really funny to see the salt come from the community that grew up with this terrible gimmick which actively hurts melee - but then, we all know that's the part you all struggle with, so it makes sense.

This is pure nonsense.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

This is pure nonsense.

This is just nonsense

copycat

 

[Thrax1]

Offensive attacks should always come with vulnerability or a counter, kicking and missing does not atm. Kicking in bannerlord by definition is broken. The current state of kicking takes so much away from melee.

 

[DeathBG]

Just make you character a Large Chad and you can do offensive kicks.This is not something that should exist at all in my opinion.Also your character's height should not make such an impact on the melee.Kick should be a defensive mechanic only when someone does not have good footwork he will get baited and punished.

 

[hoonii]

Kicks are fine, fix the client-side issue where the kick doesn't connect visually but you still get kicked, and it's all good.
IMO kicks are adding a bit of interesting alternative to melee fights, other than just swinging your weapon and feinting(pretty boring).
We also need chambering so melee gets more skill-based and more interesting.

 

[Firunien]

Just make you character a Large Chad and you can do offensive kicks.This is not something that should exist at all in my opinion.Also your character's height should not make such an impact on the melee.Kick should be a defensive mechanic only when someone does not have good footwork he will get baited and punished.

It should have impact, there is a tradeoff when shields reach to your knees only. From my perspective all heights should be uniform, i wrote that very early in the Beta already and dev didnt even tell me what the payoff should be.

 

[MP_Erik]

It should have impact, there is a tradeoff when shields reach to your knees only. From my perspective all heights should be uniform, i wrote that very early in the Beta already and dev didnt even tell me what the payoff should be.

Yes, diffenent heights in Multiplayer make balance quite messy, especially for different classes.

 

[CTH.]

Funny how bannerlord competitive has been revolving around making the gameplay as dirty as possible and avoid clean melee. Crush throughs, jav spams, kick spams, how is the state of comp now? Cav and archers meta I heard, spam cav knockdowns into shot by archer?
oh well

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Funny how bannerlord competitive has been revolving around making the gameplay as dirty as possible and avoid clean melee. Crush throughs, jav spams, kick spams, how is the state of comp now? Cav and archers meta I heard, spam cav knockdowns into shot by archer?
oh well

I agree but with slightly less salt, the reliance on gimmicks is due to an imperfect melee system. Several people in the BL scene have now said to me that you need kicks because otherwise you can't force kills in melee; sounds like a reason to improve the melee to me, not continue to rely on kicks. If they fix kicks it will just move to something else like javving around shields, 2h hit and run spam, etc etc, so kicks must be balanced at the same time as melee is improved. Some tweaks that would help inf become more reliable at forcing kills:

-shorten the arcs of swings and make them more forward-facing
-reduce the return hit timing from blocks to encourage positioning and pressure
-add a slight turncap to encourage positioning
-combat movement speed needs tweaked, it's better than before but not perfect. Not sure of the specifics, would love to experiment more a la combat testing (or private testing servers if they were allowed)

 

[CTH.]

I think the melee itself is pretty reliable rn, of course it could be better but without kicks as an offensive tool, everything would be pretty much defendable and balanced. I like it a bit faster than warband and being able to accel/drag. What the game would need too is a GF mod for melee enthousiasts like in mordhau. XvXs no shields, melee only. What tarnishes the game are rat tactics preventing ppl for using melee.

 

[Shemaforash]

Imagine defending an absolutely broken kick
Desperation in new gen competitive players when they want to keep what's broken to sustain their crap skill gap cause they spent 700 hours in early access

 

[Pacemaker]

Imagine defending an absolutely broken kick
Desperation in new gen competitive players when they want to keep what's broken to sustain their crap skill gap cause they spent 700 hours in early access

Rubbish. People know offensive kicks have to go and will accept it when everything is tuned so that it doesn't turn combat into dry shield clubbing. It's not gonna change jack **** about competitive standings. The people who play this game competitively are the ones who are, you know, actually playing the game. They adapt. They won't drop off because of one mechanic, and former Warband vets aren't going to get magically catapulted to the top through the sheer power of their egos either.