There is no counter-play against kick-slash

Is kick-slash broken?

  • Yes

    Votes: 53 45.3%
  • No

    Votes: 53 45.3%
  • dunno

    Votes: 11 9.4%

  • Total voters
    117

Users who are viewing this thread

Kripaz

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
And about kicks, people complain about them but if you look out for them you can easily dodge them, unless youre in a 2v1 or 3v1 then you'll get fooked.
Thank God kicks are easy to dodge in current builds (still getting nightmares from previous versions), but if only you could punish players who just spam kicks care free knowing they can't be touched we could get rid of "kick to win" meta.

Increase the window you can block after kick.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
If players are running in a straight line to kick you then that is the easiest kick I've seen in my life. Not only that but it's fairly easy to know exactly when their kick is coming and time a side step and slash.

Jufasto is a bit of an outlier in that yes, he kicks a lot, but all his kicks are done at a time when he knows he can't be punished in that clip. 1st one is against spear man, 2nd and 3rd one the other guy wasn't focusing on him, 4th one the inf can't risk to swing because there is an archer and cav looking at him. Been a while since I played Warband but I doubt he would have been punished in similar situations. On top of it all, you cannot block while kicking with a shield, it opens you way up compared to with a weapon you can block straight away.

Archers and cav can force kills with footshots/bumpstabs so why aren't infantry allowed to have a way to force a kill? And don't tell me "we should make spamming work" because whats the difference, both require footwork to prevent it IIRC from Warband.

Kicks obviously still have a weird hitbox as evidenced by the earlier clip(or it's desync issues) but it's far from the wonkiest or stupidest thing in the game right now.
 

tom54p

Knight
Archers and cav can force kills with footshots/bumpstabs so why aren't infantry allowed to have a way to force a kill? And don't tell me "we should make spamming work" because whats the difference, both require footwork to prevent it IIRC from Warband.
I'd say because kicks completely ruin the odds of winning an outnumbered situation, while spamming doesn't.
When you are outnumbered what happens is that you are forced to move where you don't want to so it doesn't take much to get kicked.
The directional shield blocking doesn't help this also, since it's very hard to consistently get in between players (when outnumbered) there is a tendency to avoid that option and go for the sides but again that is not hard to read.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Been a while since I played Warband but I doubt he would have been punished in similar situations. On top of it all, you cannot block while kicking with a shield, it opens you way up compared to with a weapon you can block straight away.
Wrong. Not only would he have been punished in most of those, they wouldn't even have been attempted because kicking was much less reliable.
 

KSHMR

Sergeant at Arms
Thank God kicks are easy to dodge in current builds (still getting nightmares from previous versions), but if only you could punish players who just spam kicks care free knowing they can't be touched we could get rid of "kick to win" meta.

Increase the window you can block after kick.
Increasing the window doesn't change much for high tier teams and matchups. Timing requires practise and after a certain amount of hours players will always time the kick and slash right. I almost never miss the slash as long as the kick is right. I miss kicks sometimes but once the kick hits its a guaranteed hit.. Most players will feel the same way about this so this is not the way to go.

In my opinion kicks are fine as they are, but thats just my view on things.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Increasing the window doesn't change much for high tier teams and matchups. Timing requires practise and after a certain amount of hours players will always time the kick and slash right. I almost never miss the slash as long as the kick is right. I miss kicks sometimes but once the kick hits its a guaranteed hit.. Most players will feel the same way about this so this is not the way to go.

In my opinion kicks are fine as they are, but thats just my view on things.
This is just nonsense since we have demonstrable evidence that different kick mechanics create a different meta.
 

Zoonanay

Knight
Mabons is right, infantry need the ability to force open opponents or they'll be relegated to passive bystanders.

But, the effectiveness of kicks often reduces 2v1's to a series of forced moves, leaving the alone player with little opportunity to clutch. Granted using collision boxes to force movement should be possible in a 2v1, but currently it is too easy.

Recovery time from kicks should be extended, as Gibby, OGL and others have said, it needs to be as punishable for missing a kick as it is rewarding for landing one.

Increasing infantry movement speed would give players a longer window to read and respond to a kick, whilst also giving outnumbered players faster shifts in direction and speed to work a clutch/avoid kicking with.

I think a more underrated suggestion is chamberable kicking, unlike weapon chambering which needs a relatively tight chamber box to reduce accidental chambering, kick chambers could have a much larger and thus more consistent chamber box.

The exact parameters can be adjusted, but it provides a more aggressive way to punish wreckless/predictable kicking whilst also giving some way to counter being kicked when in a forced position.
 

Njördson

Veteran
If players are running in a straight line to kick you then that is the easiest kick I've seen in my life. Not only that but it's fairly easy to know exactly when their kick is coming and time a side step and slash.

Jufasto is a bit of an outlier in that yes, he kicks a lot, but all his kicks are done at a time when he knows he can't be punished in that clip. 1st one is against spear man, 2nd and 3rd one the other guy wasn't focusing on him, 4th one the inf can't risk to swing because there is an archer and cav looking at him. Been a while since I played Warband but I doubt he would have been punished in similar situations. On top of it all, you cannot block while kicking with a shield, it opens you way up compared to with a weapon you can block straight away.

Archers and cav can force kills with footshots/bumpstabs so why aren't infantry allowed to have a way to force a kill? And don't tell me "we should make spamming work" because whats the difference, both require footwork to prevent it IIRC from Warband.

Kicks obviously still have a weird hitbox as evidenced by the earlier clip(or it's desync issues) but it's far from the wonkiest or stupidest thing in the game right now.
I completely agree with you
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Which different kick mechanics? We have had a nerf in kick reach and speed which makes it harder to land a kick.
As much as one month prior to release kicks were slower and mostly useless. People were aware of the bug that speeds up attacks after kicks but even then they had limited utility, because kicks were so slow and left you vulnerable if missed. You did not see the current kick meta then, and there were scrims happening.

It was only about 2 weeks prior to launch that they get buffed, and instead of reworking kicks into what we asked - longer stun - this mess is the result.

And that's without even mentioning Warband, a 10 year long successful competitive scene where kicks were also not used in the current manner seen in BL.
 

Firunien

#Feedrunien
Grandmaster Knight
As much as one month prior to release kicks were slower and mostly useless. People were aware of the bug that speeds up attacks after kicks but even then they had limited utility, because kicks were so slow and left you vulnerable if missed. You did not see the current kick meta then, and there were scrims happening.

It was only about 2 weeks prior to launch that they get buffed, and instead of reworking kicks into what we asked - longer stun - this mess is the result.

And that's without even mentioning Warband, a 10 year long successful competitive scene where kicks were also not used in the current manner seen in BL.
Cant compare the two in this point, the mechanic works different on many levels. I like the mechanic in Bannerlord way more then in Warband, its strong but not broken, the only tweak i agree on is the slight increase on time needed to be able to block again so missing becomes a bit more punishing.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Of course you can compare the two, you just don't want to. It's fine to state your preference, but the current state of inf fights being people hurling kicks out every 10s speaks for itself.
 

Firunien

#Feedrunien
Grandmaster Knight
Of course you can compare the two, you just don't want to. It's fine to state your preference, but the current state of inf fights being people hurling kicks out every 10s speaks for itself.
What does it say ? Apart from running through normandy beach just to get stabbed from all sides infantry fighting is really fun.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
What does it say ? Apart from running through normandy beach just to get stabbed from all sides infantry fighting is really fun.
It says that different mechanics create different outcomes so claiming it will always be this way - as the person I responded to said - is silly.

If you - and the devs - think inf missing kicks constantly and using a bugged speed increase is good, more power to you, but for me it's laughably bad. It's possible people will learn to punish it more, but overall I think it's always going to detract from the melee without change.
 

Firunien

#Feedrunien
Grandmaster Knight
It says that different mechanics create different outcomes so claiming it will always be this way - as the person I responded to said - is silly.

If you - and the devs - think inf missing kicks constantly and using a bugged speed increase is good, more power to you, but for me it's laughably bad. It's possible people will learn to punish it more, but overall I think it's always going to detract from the melee without change.
Well the "bugged" speed increase is actually something you gotta master and always pull off right so its actual skill. Btw i never said its perfect and finished, but mostly good, punishment time window could be increased yes. I am not for changing the whole mechanic but rather small tweaks. I just dont like your approach to nerf it to the point where its unreliable and rarely used.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Well the "bugged" speed increase is actually something you gotta master and always pull off right so its actual skill. Btw i never said its perfect and finished, but mostly good, punishment time window could be increased yes. I am not for changing the whole mechanic but rather small tweaks. I just dont like your approach to nerf it to the point where its unreliable and rarely used.
I don't necessarily point out the bug as a negative, just that it's unintended (therefore seems silly to say kicks are in a final state, as many seem to think). But the one thing Odin correctly pointed out is that anyone is going to master it eventually - it takes a certain skill to achieve, but given its prevalence it obviously isn't that high a barrier. Therefore, it's going to continue to become the meta unless a) actions are taken or b) there is some better way to punish it we haven't discovered yet.

I really don't see the problem with returning it to a high risk high reward utility move though. I find it hard to believe you played Warband for the best part of 5+ years and thought, this needs more kicks.
 

Firunien

#Feedrunien
Grandmaster Knight
I don't necessarily point out the bug as a negative, just that it's unintended (therefore seems silly to say kicks are in a final state, as many seem to think). But the one thing Odin correctly pointed out is that anyone is going to master it eventually - it takes a certain skill to achieve, but given its prevalence it obviously isn't that high a barrier. Therefore, it's going to continue to become the meta unless a) actions are taken or b) there is some better way to punish it we haven't discovered yet.

I really don't see the problem with returning it to a high risk high reward utility move though. I find it hard to believe you played Warband for the best part of 5+ years and thought, this needs more kicks.
I played it all the way from start to finish with 1 year hiatus enjoyed the time and moved on.
Kickslashing is not low risk high reward.. whats the reward ?
You hit somebody for 30-40 damage, while beeing forced in place which gets punished by cav and archers easily. Every ranged weapon should be deleted if that is a goal, you dont even have to go close to enemy.
Also its dangerous to try an aggresive kick against somebody playing defensive, if he is good with kicking as well.
There is way more kicking then in Warband and that is great, i do agree that the kick should make you vulnerable a bit longer though.
 

Ling*

Knight at Arms
I voted no because Kick-Slashing doesn't have any impact on the outcome of a Captain Mode match.

If the Ai started Kick-Slashing people though I might reconsider, though I will admit that would be awesome to see.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Kickslashing is not low risk high reward.. whats the reward ?
You hit somebody for 30-40 damage, while beeing forced in place which gets punished by cav and archers easily. Every ranged weapon should be deleted if that is a goal, you dont even have to go close to enemy.
If the reward is so poor, why does every inf player currently spam kick as often as they can so long as aren't literally about to get couched? Nonsense. A free hit is a huge reward, especially considering you can combine it with pressure from a hold.

Ranged weapons have often been low risk high reward as well sure, as have been throwing weapons - which is why they've been rightfully nerfed and should continue to be rebalanced.
Also its dangerous to try an aggresive kick against somebody playing defensive, if he is good with kicking as well.
There is way more kicking then in Warband and that is great, i do agree that the kick should make you vulnerable a bit longer though.
Right, so the game becomes about who kicks more and better as I've been saying. Again, if you like that, cool - but I don't think it's either intended or a good use of MnB melee mechanics.
 
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