The worst balancing issue in skirmish? Shock Infantry.

[Pacemaker]

So, after observing a training match yesterday (or rather, the debut of GGs), I've come to understand something that should have been apparent to me after the last BEAST final. The most unbalanced aspect between factions right now is, without a shred of a doubt, the shock infantry. And by that, I don't mean the strength of a specific class so much as its relative strength to its equivalent of another faction.

First of all, before I go into more details, I want to hear nothing about TW's internal skirmish statsheets and whatever implications they may or may not carry. They have absolutely no business in this discussion. My views are based on the objective strategical difference that should become immediately apparent when two teams of equal level face each other, assuming they command roughly the same amount of versatile skillsets.

Secondly, I am well aware that factions are designed to be performing more well in certain areas than in others. However nice the idea may sound on paper, TaleWorlds has at no point executed this properly. Since the start of the Beta, the reality of this design philosophy was a categoricial divison of

1. gimmicky faction (Khuzait),
2. gimmicky faction with more options (Aserai),
3. Mary Sue - does-it-all faction (Vlandia, Empire)

And gimmicks in this case don't imply that they are strong strategies that can rival the versatility of the 3rd category factions. No, they are simply strategies that the other factions have access to just the same, but in their case they are forced into playing them as they simply have no other options.

One such "option" (or lack thereof) is the shock infantry. Looking through each faction, I simply do not understand the thought process that went into designing some of them. The difference in strength is absolutely unexplainable to me no matter how I look at it, faction balance or faction design wise.

To make this clear to everyone, I shall now list the shock infantry classes. For this tier-list I will assume divison A level of competitive skirmish and divide them into three categories: God-tier, Viable-tier, and Garbage(NOT viable)-tier

God-Tier:

Empire Menavlion Infantry (Armor Perk + Pilum):

This unit is utterly baffling to me. It is so absurd, its strength actually seems like an oversight. 120 Gold. You get one of the last few hard-hitting and viable throwing weapons, a pila. You get the longest of all shock infantry weapons with comparable speed to the Voulge, the menavlion. You get a shield. You get more armor than you would on a Savage with the armor perk (which gets you a garbage weapon in return). Just, what the ****?​

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From strategical viewpoint, a team that can field a few confident shock infantry players can absolutely sweep their opponent with this class. From round 2 onwards they will be able to spawn three times, and these guys can easily take out a heavy infantry on their own in a 1 vs. 1. Do I need to say more? For the sake of keeping my sanity, I will stop here.​

Vlandia Voulgier (Armor perk + Awl Pike OR throwing weapons):

This bad boy is 2nd to the Menavlion Infantry only due to the fact that he doesn't come with a shield. Again, 120 Gold. You get the voulge, a fantastic weapon for both crowd control and 1 vs. 1's, albeit being shorter than the menavlion. Hits hard with decent speed. You get even more armor than the Menavlion does. On top of that, you can also get an awl pike which actually has seen some competitive play recently due to its insane damage potential.​

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Needless to say, this class has the same sweep potential as the Menavlion for obvious reasons. (For reference, watch the final map of the BEAST#3 finale)​

Viable-Tier:

Aserai Guard (Bardiche + Pike OR throwing weapons):

Here we have the first major step down from our Mary Sue faction counterparts. Again, 120 Gold. You do get a shield, unlike the Voulgier, but if you want to have the weapon with reach and damage output, you cannot choose the armor, making you squishier than the other two. Furthermore, the Bardiche being an axe makes it inferior to the other weapons with its mediocre animations that simply don't give the same amount of spam pressure as a Voulge or Menavlion does.​

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This unit is still a good choice due to its triple spawn capability. Some of the less armored infantries can easily be one-shot by the Bardiche.​

Sturgia Warrior (Armor + Two Handed Axe)

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This class is a strange exception, since it is technically not a shock infantry class, but a peasant infantry that can choose perks to achieve the same effect. It costs 100 Gold, so unlike all the other ones, this one you can triple spawn in round 1 and with any eco. You get a whopping 24 Armor, making it pretty tanky by comparison. You get a two handed axe, which is, needless to say, the weakest two hander so far. However, it still comes with decent range and respectable damage.​

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The one major drawback of this unit is the lack of a shield. Going for it on first spawn may prove fatal in certain situations, as projectiles will make short work of you before you even get to join the fight.​

Garbage-Tier:

Sturgia Berserker

A beautiful example for a straight design ****-up. You may be wondering: Just why exactly is the dedicated shock infantry of Sturgia worse than its stand-in peasant brother? First up, 120 Gold like the other shock infantry classes. No triple spawning on first round. Next, picking a weapon for its first perk leaves you with 6 armor, which means you are, for all intends and purposess, naked. (Remember, the warrior comes with 24!). Picking the armor gives you, well, a Warrior with less armor. But hey, at least you get a paper shield!​

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The weapon choices are interesting. TaleWorlds gave him a maul, a weapon that had major potential in group fights with many heavy infantries present with its crushthrough affinity. Then they nerfed not only crushthrough but also reduced its speed to the point that it looks like you are swinging in slow-motion. It is no longer viable. The Long Axe seems like the obvious choice, but it's just not worth it. It gives you reach, but its a much, MUCH worse weapon than a voulge or a menavlion in every other aspect.​

This class is a waste of 120 Gold.​

Battania Savage

Once an interesting class due its hilariously high movement speed in the beta, it is no longer relevant outside of TDM. For this special snowflake, you pay 110 Gold. With a dedicated weapon, you are even more naked than the Berserker. Three arrows from the crappiest bows in the lowest damaging areas will kill you. Any axe-shaped weapon will one-shot you. The speed and cutting power of the Rhomphaia is just nothing special against armored units. You will have to hit them 3 times or so while you are one-shot Johnny.​

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Like the Berserker, it has (or should I say, "had") a maul that could deal a lot of damage with crushthrough and group fight confusion, but now its so laughably slow that a complete beginner will kill you if you mistime your swing against a fast weapon. This guy isn't worth bothering with and doesn't see play in Div A as far as I could see.​

So that leads me to my conclusion. Do you notice how the best shock infantry classes are part of the factions that already have literally everything else? Do you notice that Khuzait doesn't have one at all aside from the Khan's Guard (160 Gold) glaive, forcing it to answer with archer spam? This balancing makes no sense to me and it should really be looked at.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

The ranking is correct. Never felt something more unbalanced than khuzait vs menavlion spam on xauna so far.

 

[AVRC]

First, the second equipment slot for Shock Troops will most probably be replaced with Skill perks, they will have 2 skill perks. So no throwing or other relatively irrelevant stuff that they have at the moment.

Second, how about allowing Khuzait to pick more archers so they can kill those shock troops ? You actively block a faction's answer to a strategy and then complain that it can not be stopped...

Third, nice write up, we are happy to make adjustments.

 

[Pacemaker]

Thanks for the reply.

Second, how about allowing Khuzait to pick more archers so they can kill those shock troops ? You actively block a faction's answer to a strategy and then complain that it can not be stopped...

People haven't been too aware of the strength of shock infantry until recently as they require special skillsets to captilize on. This is very specific and would require making exceptions for a system that has otherwise worked well. In extreme cases, yes, shock infantry spam cannot be countered unless extreme setups are allowed as counter.

 

[Jufasto]

Perfect summary about Shock Infantry balance amongst the factions. Nice work Pace
I remember when we were testing the new multiplayer patches in combat test discord, developers asked us "How can we make shock infantry viable at the competitive arena?" Most of us laughed and said "It's impossible, there are just too many counters against them and heavy infantry is better than shock"
(They removed or nerfed every shock infantry counter. Some of them are right, some of them are wrong decisions.)
Counters against shock infantry were:
1. Throwings -> Even with a single throwing, you were like holding a sniper, so fast, so accurate and hurtful damage
2. OP Bows ->Too fast, too accurate, easy to headshot, easy to aim from third person. (I still don't understand why did they change the archery aim system from warband)
3. Heavy Infantries had throwings before. -> They could hunt down shock infantries from far away.
4. Heavy Infantries had fast movement speed (not like the turtles they are currently)
5. Heavy Infantries' shield was enormously tanky, you could not break it for hours.

How Heavy Infantries got NERFED:
They took the throwings, the movement speed, the shield hp and that was more than enough to be that class become garbage.

How Shock Infantries got BUFFED:
Fast as f*ck boi, the crushthrough (thank god they removed the worst feature ever), the massive weapon damage, triple spawn after round 1.

In conclusion: Bring throwings back to Heavy Infantry, buff throwing damage, buff movement speed of heavy infantry.

 

[AVRC]

Thanks for the reply.

People haven't been too aware of the strength of shock infantry until recently as they require special skillsets to captilize on. This is very specific and would require making exceptions for a system that has otherwise worked well. In extreme cases, yes, shock infantry spam cannot be countered unless extreme setups are allowed as counter.

I am not saying only Khuzait obviously, I am talking about limits all together.
I think the matches last night were great but could have been better if one side could switch to more archers to stop the Shock Troop spam, then the other side would need to switch to another setup to stop those archers.
I understand that you believe some setups are unstoppable and I agree, I am sure there are some that are too strong as @Jufasto pointed out 6 cav during the stream. We will work to make sure they are all stoppable with another setup.

Perfect summary about Shock Infantry balance amongst the factions. Nice work Pace
I remember when we were testing the new multiplayer patches in combat test discord, developers asked us "How can we make shock infantry viable at the competitive arena?" Most of us laughed and said "It's impossible, there are just too many counters against them and heavy infantry is better than shock"
(They removed or nerfed every shock infantry counter. Some of them are right, some of them are wrong decisions.)
Counters against shock infantry were:
1. Throwings -> Even with a single throwing, you were like holding a sniper, so fast, so accurate and hurtful damage
2. OP Bows ->Too fast, too accurate, easy to headshot, easy to aim from third person. (I still don't understand why did they change the archery aim system from warband)
3. Heavy Infantries had throwings before. -> They could hunt down shock infantries from far away.
4. Heavy Infantries had fast movement speed (not like the turtles they are currently)
5. Heavy Infantries' shield was enormously tanky, you could not break it for hours.

How Heavy Infantries got NERFED:
They took the throwings, the movement speed, the shield hp and that was more than enough to be that class become garbage.

How Shock Infantries got BUFFED:
Fast as f*ck boi, the crushthrough (thank god they removed the worst feature ever), the massive weapon damage, triple spawn after round 1.

Yes, this is very accurate as Shock Troops should be the ones having an advantage over Heavy Infantry and other troops should have an advantage over the Shock Troops. Currently we believe that archers, especially with faster bows, should be filling that role. If their performance is not enough we will make more adjustments but obviously we need to see it in action first at the hands of best players to determine their full capabilities.

 

[KSHMR]

I am not saying only Khuzait obviously, I am talking about limits all together.
I think the matches last night were great but could have been better if one side could switch to more archers to stop the Shock Troop spam, then the other side would need to switch to another setup to stop those archers.
I understand that you believe some setups are unstoppable and I agree, I am sure there are some that are too strong as @Jufasto pointed out 6 cav during the stream. We will work to make sure they are all stoppable with another setup.


Yes, this is very accurate as Shock Troops should be the ones having an advantage over Heavy Infantry and other troops should have an advantage over the Shock Troops. Currently we believe that archers, especially with faster bows, should be filling that role. If their performance is not enough we will make more adjustments but obviously we need to see it in action first at the hands of best players to determine their full capabilities.

Shock troops -> Heavy Inf
Other classes -> Shock troops

??????????

How about this:
All other classes -> Heavy Inf

A lot of people want to play a normal Infantry class with a decent shield, sword and armour. This class system forces us to be either a goddam 2h dude with small shield or a a Heavy Inf thats get literally MOLESTED by every single other class in the game. I guess the future of this game is Mount and Molested 2.

On a more positive note, I think you have created battanian Inf very nicely. battania does have a regular infantry class where one doesnt have to pick between extremes.

 

[Gibby Jr]

From what I’ve seen one of the strongest tools shock troops have is the stun their weapons seem to apply onto all other troops, even to other shock troops. I don’t know how it works, but this stun seems to be able to force a heavy infantry to have to block multiple times in a row whilst chasing after a faster shock troop who also has a long weapon with which they can keep attacking as they kite. The only counter is to try and hug the shock troop, which massively increases the chance of getting kicked and makes you more vulnerable to cavalry and archers. Personally I think that if this stun effect was reduced, perhaps so that it only applies if the heavy weapon is held before release (as is the case in warband), so that normal attacks from shock troop weapons don’t apply any stun that it would greatly assist in helping other infantry fight shock troops. I also think some of the damage numbers on shock troop weapons get a little too crazy, which could do with coming down a bit, but in general I don’t think they’re in too bad of a place. That said, as Pace has pointed out there is a significant imbalance between the quality of the shock troops available to each faction. I also happen to agree that factions like Vlandia and Empire really shouldn’t have the best shock troops when they are also very powerful in other areas. That is a balance which seems to be in desperate need of attention, at least to make sturgian and battanian shock troops viable and to reduce the quality of vlandian and empire ones.

 

[Firunien]

@Pacemaker
From a class perspective the voulgier is propably the one best balanced, i see the menavlian as beeing stronger because of their access to Pila and the better horserearing potential. The faction imbalance is definitly worrying.
@AVRC
Khuzaits special unit (the reason there is no shock or heavy inf), the horse archer was nerfed to pieces by the high movement penalty to accuracy, so this unit is dead weight on the class table.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

You allude to it in OP but I'll make it explicit, I think having a class with such high movement disparity is anti-fun and imbalanced. Shocks are much faster than the heavy inf, usually 82-83 vs 78, might not seem a lot but this is comparable to the difference between inf and archers, on top of weight difference in equipment giving a further edge to Shocks.

I stated this a long time back (here, where also you made your first post @Pacemaker so congrats on coming full circle), but worth reiterating the issues. It creates a kind of meta style of hit and runs which is antithetical to melee combat. I especially don't see how, if this is how Shocks are supposed to counter Heavies as @AVRC says, this is compelling game design considering Heavies only real strength is melee combat, and this just adds a whole other class that they cannot effectively melee with (on top of kiting archers and fast cav). On top of the current state of kicks where inf have to be quite aware of their footwork, having a class that can much more easily escape and re-enter melee forces slower inf to push into a more kickable position or simply just take it.

It's all well and good saying archers are the counter - they are - but from a broader perspective this is just another design decision that discourages melee in a melee game.

For some suggestions I would:

-equalise movement speeds more across all classes and decrease the weight impact of shields
-remove the side swing from menavlions
-add movement debuff to getting hit to further punish kiting from melee
-stop 2h weapons being able to stun shields with a side swing quick hit

As an aside I actually think the Voulgier with sword and shield feels good in terms of movement, might be nice to use that as a baseline for infantry movement.

 

[AVRC]

@Pacemaker
From a class perspective the voulgier is propably the one best balanced, i see the menavlian as beeing stronger because of their access to Pila and the better horserearing potential. The faction imbalance is definitly worrying.
@AVRC
Khuzaits special unit (the reason there is no shock or heavy inf), the horse archer was nerfed to pieces by the high movement penalty to accuracy, so this unit is dead weight on the class table.

Mounted Archer accuracy is getting buffed.

 

[TheBard]

Mounted Archer accuracy is getting buffed.

Pls dont, the drive-by flashbacks....

But yeah, I agree, we have two factions with one of the strongest heavy cavs (Cataphract has enormous group fight potential but no lance, vlandia knight has lance), the strongest archers because crossbows are broken and - topic of this thread - strong shock spawns AND on top of that viable heavy infantry choices if necessary. It is too much.

I'd say leave the shock troops be for now if you're so much in love with them and remove the crossbow from Empire again as first step + make pavise share for vlandia cav impossible. It's in my opinion the combination which makes these faction absolutely OP right now. Menav + Pila should stay and rather I see the crossbow go from Empire.

-equalise movement speeds more across all classes and decrease the weight impact of shields

Yes to shield impact, NO to equalization across the classes. Archers movement speed imo should be even decreased more.

-remove the side swing from menavlions

Then you can straight out delete the class... Menavlion needs fencing capabilities when cornered, it's one of the reasons these shock troops are viable and actually cool.

-add movement debuff to getting hit to further punish kiting from melee

I'm unsure how this could work, but maybe a modification of the sprint mechanic can be used.

-stop 2h weapons being able to stun shields with a side swing quick hit

+1 or at least let me direction block it without having a third of my shield health removed anyway + being stunned regardless.
@OurGloriousLeader I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Though I think there is a lot of valid feedback here; we went through a long period of everyone complaining that throwing damage was too high and throwing weapons too prevalent. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the throwing items being removed from heavy infantry mostly met with congratulations?

Let's not throw the baby out with the cradle - I'd like to see how cavalry nerfs impact the game first. Then move on to shock infantry. I also believe until we see the 3rd perk slot most of these balancing discussions are regrettably meaningless. No point balancing the game around two perks when you are going to upheave it all again.

 

[Einarcf]

With movement speed changes, foot archers can't kite for that long. So that tactic falls a bit away. I would have liked to see Khuzait maybe try to play with terrain, like going into cramped areas to reduce menavlion's possible swing directions. Still, if the archer is shooting, and not shielding, menavlion could throw here.

Menavlion has other strengths too. He can do reasonably well to stop cav and very well to kill riders (reach/stabbing option). He has pila which can be used again even when it kills people (I thought the whole point was making it stick into something). He will of course kill heavy inf, leaving few counters left other than other shock inf, that Khuzait lacks. (Guard slow, no shield and pricy. But might be best option still).

Horse archer seems to be compensation for lack of shock. He has shield vs throwing, but since swapping animation got changed IIRC, it takes too long for it to be used vs pila. He need to stand still to footshoot fairly close, and risk getting swung and thrown at. He could destroy shield with arrows. But there is some kind of modifier for arrows so it takes like 4 arrows to do. If the shield is broken, horse archer could maybe afford to be moving and shooting, as the inf is now a bigger target. But if they have 1 singular archer (or maybe just a lucky throw), your horse or yourself will die during this process.

Of course, the big reason is also that Xuana is maybe the best inf map. Flags are not open, cav are blocked. Archers need to get close to shoot. The flags are close to each other. So mass cav/ some archers and flag play does not work too well.

*Edit* Good vs. Heavy inf because of stun, length and movement speed.

 

[Pacemaker]

Though I think there is a lot of valid feedback here; we went through a long period of everyone complaining that throwing damage was too high and throwing weapons too prevalent. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the throwing items being removed from heavy infantry mostly met with congratulations?

Let's not throw the baby out with the cradle - I'd like to see how cavalry nerfs impact the game first. Then move on to shock infantry. I also believe until we see the 3rd perk slot most of these balancing discussions are regrettably meaningless. No point balancing the game around two perks when you are going to upheave it all again.

Well, people love to complain about the immediately visible annoyances without considering the bigger picture. Throwing weapons got nerfed, and only then they realized that they were the most important weapon at fighting cavarly.

I don't know why you would make this a priority queue, this whole thing has little to do with cavarly. This seriously affects faction performance at a high level and I'm just pointing out how the shock inf power level differences simply don't make sense any way you look at them.

 

[Mabons]

Shock infantry classes show it best but this random imbalances are everywhere in the game. You didn’t even mention the Peasant with its improved armour and Billhook, technically also a “Shock” unit for only 80g!

Most light archer classes can only dream of the damage that Arbelists and Battania Rangers can put out. Light cavalry all still lag behind the Camel.

Warband had factions strengths and weaknesses to play around too, they just weren’t so “pigeonholed”.

In any case, sorry but Menavlions need to go. At least in their current state.

 

[TheBard]

Shock infantry classes show it best but this random imbalances are everywhere in the game. You didn’t even mention the Peasant with its improved armour and Billhook, technically also a “Shock” unit for only 80g!

Most light archer classes can only dream of the damage that Arbelists and Battania Rangers can put out. Light cavalry all still lag behind the Camel.

Warband had factions strengths and weaknesses to play around too, they just weren’t so “pigeonholed”.

In any case, sorry but Menavlions need to go. At least in their current state.

I mean if loot can be found on the battlefield you can also capitalize on that heavily with peasants 2nd spawn and get super strong eco for next round.
It's usually the package deal which creates imbalance and I'd like to rather see the crossbow go on Empire than Shocks being nerfed into the ground.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Well, people love to complain about the immediately visible annoyances without considering the bigger picture. Throwing weapons got nerfed, and only then they realized that they were the most important weapon at fighting cavarly.

I don't know why you would make this a priority queue, this whole thing has little to do with cavarly. This seriously affects faction performance at a high level and I'm just pointing out how the shock inf power level differences simply don't make sense any way you look at them.

I didn't take part in the BEAST; so the one part of bannerlord (or M&B in general) I am happy to concede I'm not an expert on is the tournament meta. However to my untrained eyes it seems to me the major problem people have with playing infantry is their interaction with cavalry? Should cavalry get nerfed; then surely infantry become more playable by default?

All I'm saying is I'd like to see what change that has before we look at interaction between infantry & shock.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Yes to shield impact, NO to equalization across the classes. Archers movement speed imo should be even decreased more.

Archers are currently a lot slower than inf and can still kite, this is because maps are relatively small so they easily pull you into a bad position (e.g. spawn locations). Archers are always going to be able to kite unless you literally kneecap them, and making them worse in melee just encourages this behaviour. Ideally, they should be relatively similar speeds in combat with a slight disadvantage, but in a long sprint inf catch up with them.

Then you can straight out delete the class... Menavlion needs fencing capabilities when cornered, it's one of the reasons these shock troops are viable and actually cool.

Then delete the class. Having a weapon longer than greatsword and more damaging able to be swung around fast is just obviously broken. If it can only up attack like a 2h and down stab like a pike, it is unique but a support weapon. It would still be incredibly strong, just ensure the class has a 1h it can switch to for 1v1.

I'm unsure how this could work, but maybe a modification of the sprint mechanic can be used.

Something like the brief stun you receive when bumped or similar, including when jumping. Reduces kiting from both archers and shock troops since they can't just walk or jump away whilst getting slashed in the back.

PS I like how much easier it is to respond to individual quotes my forum war game just levelled up.

 

[KSHMR]

Though I think there is a lot of valid feedback here; we went through a long period of everyone complaining that throwing damage was too high and throwing weapons too prevalent. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the throwing items being removed from heavy infantry mostly met with congratulations?

Let's not throw the baby out with the cradle - I'd like to see how cavalry nerfs impact the game first. Then move on to shock infantry. I also believe until we see the 3rd perk slot most of these balancing discussions are regrettably meaningless. No point balancing the game around two perks when you are going to upheave it all again.

Throwing weapon in the current game leave zero footprints. It's correct that the bulk of the community voted for nerfing throwing weapon some time ago, yet the main part of this group did clearly not foresee the end result would render throwing weapons useless. A sturgian archer can take three or four javelins to the head without getting killed. The only really good situations for throwing weapons is when a cavalry charges at you with full speed. I am not saying we need to massively buff throwing weapons again, all I'm saying is that we need to look into this because it is not in the right place as it is.