The Turkish Army in Syria 2019

正在查看此主题的用户

Gladly.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/18/un-investigates-turkey-alleged-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-syria
https://www.businessinsider.com/turkey-may-have-used-chemical-weapons-on-kurdish-civilians-2019-10
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/17/turkish-proxies-chemical-weapons-syria-kurds/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-turkey-ceasefire-war-crimes-middle-east-a9161586.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kurdish-children-scream-agony-turkey-20646745
https://www.newsweek.com/turkey-accused-war-crimes-suspected-white-phosphorous-chemical-weapons-use-against-kurds-syria-1466248
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1193672/erdogan-news-turkey-phosphorus-weapon-syria-kurdish-civilians-world-war-3-spt
https://news.sky.com/story/syria-crisis-face-to-face-turkeys-president-denies-claims-of-war-crimes-11839113

 
I see no convincing proof, only groundless accusations, if they even reach the level of accusations.  Is there any US-based source?
 
Most of those accusations were Kurdish -focus on YPG/PKK here- based but people bought it anyway. I mean, when they were accusing Turkey with "mass genocide, massacre, killing civilians, ethnic cleansing" etc., it was no different than this. But, a NATO army, using white phosphorus, for killing civilians? Ahahahah. Now this is when their lies are just obvious and total bull****.

About my post above, when did CIA admit any sketchy thing they did in the history ever? I'm not sure but they probably didn't admit that they initiated 1980 coup.
 
To be fair, CIA's job, as I understand it, is never to admit any involvement in anything.  I'm sure turkey has a similar organization.  When I see something serious in the NY Times, Washington Post or San Francisco Chronicle, maybe I'll read about it.
 
Lord Brutus 说:
To be fair, CIA's job, as I understand it, is never to admit any involvement in anything.  I'm sure turkey has a similar organization.
Of course it has one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_(Turkey)

But I doubt that they did anything serious like orchestrating coups and takeovers like CIA did -and still doing-. Poor Latin America. Aside from AKP's Neo-Ottoman idealised Syria policy, Turkey didn't intervene with any other country's domestic policies or borders or integrity. Maybe did in some way to Korea but that's because Turkey took part in Korea War. Even at the end of Turkish War of Independence, Turkey just pushed Greeks out of Anatolia but right after that it was purely diplomatic relations, nothing fancy to overthrow their government or re-conquer Greece for a Great Turkish Empire utopia.
 
Pfftt.  I believe your views, in this case, are colored by propaganda which you are unaware of.  The limiting factors for any national intelligence operation are money and time.
 
I don't think I'm biased with Turkish side about this. Surely, there were times MİT worked together or for Gladio and Counter-Guerilla in the past but just like wiki article says, it's highly sensitive to politics. Right now, it seems like MİT is working in favour of Erdogan and AKP. That's way much different than CIA with any president of USA.

There were serious and dark **** in Turkish history of politics about those Gladio factions and how they affected things. A lot of assassionations, a lot of undiscovered murders and crimes happened in the past. There were journalists who were talking about how west want to divide and conquer Turkey and they were killed, we still don't know who did it. There were military officers assassinated in south-eastern region because those men were giving a hell of a fight againts PKK, obviously PKK did not kill this guy but they will kill many other anyway.

It all somehow tied together and I'm 100% sure that Turkey's MİT(NIO) or other older security factions definitely did awful stuff. There is also this thing called JİTEM and it requires a total different take on itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie_Intelligence_Organization
 
From your position in Turkey, it is impossible to know what is the relationship between the CIA and the US president.  I live in the US and I sure don't know.  Let's keep exaggeration to a minimum.  That said, I'm not convinced Turkey used phosphorus against children or Kurds or anyone.  This whole conflict is so tribal, it's borrowed from the 6th Century.
 
Lord Brutus 说:
From your position in Turkey, it is impossible to know what is the relationship between the CIA and the US president.
Well actually*, from my position in Turkey, it is impossible to know literally anything in the scientific means. I'm just sitting behind a computer and making assumptions. I didn't ask any goverment employees about the stuff, I wasn't in the army or any kind of high rank command structure to know if we have white phosphorus or not. It's all assumptions and predictions.

I mean, there is no way TSK is killing civilians on purpose yet using white phosphorus againts them. That is common knowledge there. :grin:
 
Shame really that there seems no peaceful settlement.  Looking back at history, Kurds and Turks both have made major contributions.  An-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub was a Kurd, after all.
 
Don't believe what Trump said. Turks and Kurds are not fighting for 200 years or something. Turks and Kurds are not fighting, those ethnic based conflict story makers are just fantasizing.

Turkey and Ottoman Empire had great natşonal and religion-based enemies but just like what I said about Greece, It all became history. After War of Independence, after pushing Greeks back to Aegean Sea, It was over for us. After that there were tensions between Turkey and Greece though, solely based on Aegean Islands and Cyprus.

And there were Armenians, no not the genocide, even before Kurds, they wanted to take a slice of old Ottoman Empire's east and establish their country. They literally hit Ottoman on the back at WW1 with revolting, mass raiding eastern Village killing innocent people etc. They were supported by Russian Csar and British. Ottoman state made their own take on them, Turkey did some other. But shortly after that ASALA founded. It sometimes referred as PKK's predecessor. After PKK's open insurgency, it is found that old ASALA cells were influenced PKK, helped to organise and even literally join the fight againts Turkey.

Kurdish people were never an organised population anyway. They were living under regional tribe chiefs. Some of them still exist today. Tribe chief is a patriarch and his rule is definitive. When there is an election, political parties goes and convince him only and he gives orders to his tribe to vote which party he decided to vote. Same goes for HDP and even PKK. Some tribe chiefs were sided with Turkish state, which made them targets for PKK assaults. There were a lot villages raided like that.

Turkey initiated the mostly volunteer based village guard system because of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_guard_system

So back to the main topic, no, Turks and Kurds are not fighting. Legitimate state is fighting againts illegitimate factions and terrorist groups. There were this Kurdish rebellion even in early life of modern Turkey but they wanted to re-build İslamic Caliphate because Turkey decided to be secular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Said_rebellion

Obviously, as a wise man, Atatürk saw the potential integrity issues with Kurds being a ethnic minority under Turkish government. But he didn't decide to wipe out or mass murder anyone. He just tought it is an open invitation for western powers to rally and help Kurds and Armenians build their own state 'inside' the borders of Turkey. So yeah everyone wants best interest of their country type of thing but Ottomans were fighting for years, especially in WW1 it took a great toll on the people. Turks saw what a monster is the other imperialist powers.

You can see how harmful Sykes-Picot Aggreement on middle east today and Treaty of Sevres was just it's even worse Anatolian share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Sèvres
1280px-Treaty_of_Sèvres_1920.svg.png

Lucky for us, we had Mustafa Kemal and his friends. He bring the broken, ill man of Europe to a modern, secular republic of Turkey. His idea of Turkish borders were based on Misak-ı Milli aka National Oath. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misak-ı_Millî

At that time, Kurds were not even at a place to form large mass of population and they were citizens of Ottomans Empire. Most Kurds also fought in WW1 or other wars with Turks and many other ethnic groups, gladly died protecting the country.

But I have to also note that especially after Atatürk'ü death, people who rule the state and sometimes government took Atatürk''s concerns to an another pedestal. Talking Kurdish in public got banned for instance. Most of them were uneducated, most of them didn' t even know any other language but those people who were making decisions thought that this was what Atatürk would do and letting them speaking Kurdish is bad for unitery Turkish rule. This, unfortunately led Kurds to hating Turkish state.

But again, I have to note that this topic is much more complicated then this. Those wrongdoers were alleged with Gladio and Anti-Soviet people. Socialism was on the rise with Turkey's population, a NATO ally. Someone hit Kurds because of that but we also have to see that someone also hit socialist Turks too. Turkish history of politics is filled with controversy especially after 1950s.

I encourage you guys to read about it. 1960 coup, Turkey-Greek relations, Cyprus, Johnson letter, Gladio, Counter-Guerilla, U.S. backing Islamists againts socialist etc. These all vital element to understand both Turkey and the region.

PS: Sent from mobile, sorry for spelling mistakes.

Ah also kinda nice and informative article on the topic: https://www.vox.com/world/2019/10/16/20908262/turkey-syria-kurds-trump-invasion-questions
 
ancalimon 说:
KhergitLancer99 说:
ancalimon 说:
Trump blames Obama for becoming allies with PKK. A terrorist organization which mainly targets Kurdish and Turkish people.

https://www.axios.com/trump-isis-escapees-syria-turkey-kurds-a74c803c-6b5b-4006-af45-6ff750b29a68.html

He is right.


Doesn't make what he did right though. Still he was extremely successful in making the world love terrorists. He is a very very successful troll.
The one who were giving weapons and supplies to YPG was Trump administration tho.



Russia agreed on Turkish terms on the region, with their own interest. This seems big.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/turkey-syria-10-22-2019/index.html
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-russia-agree-on-new-syria-accord-147836
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/turkey-russia-agree-set-syria-safe-zone-joint-patrols-191022171933484.html

Can't find detailed version on western media. If you are interested, here is some base Turkish article about it: http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/dunya/1641965/iste_Turkiye_ile_Rusya_arasindaki_10_maddelik_mutabakat.html

Also, apparently 150 hours after October 23 means it all will be end on October 29, Republic Day. You can say kinda Turkey's 4th of July. Turkish Armed Forces love these kind of matching dates.
 
Cioss Julius U.X. 说:
I'm not a nationalist but when you get nothing but pointless speech attacks and propaganda againts you, you started to believe that they are hating you.

You may not self-identify as one, but unless you're completely ribbed of self-awareness you have to realize that if you weren't Turkish there is no way you'd be as onesided as you've consistently been in this thread. Just as there's no way you'd make some of the comments you made on Israel earlier in this thread if you were, say, American and there's absolutely no chance you'd have the same positions if you'd been a Syrian Turk.

Bjorn The Hound 说:
National Founding Figure Respecter 说:
Χρήσιμος Ηλίθιος 说:
I don't think anybody here hates Turkey. Maybe, you can consider for a second that maybe what your army is doing in Syria isn't legitimate, so everyone is righteously mad at your regime. Instead, you go on to assume we all hate Turks. This isn't different than what you frequently see from my countrymen (Israelis) online.

That's the only lense Nationalists are capable of seeing through. It's equivalent to American Nationalists in the early 00's thinking the only reason anyone might be pissed at the US is envy or hating their freedom.

Suggesting that US foreign policy might have had something to do with creating the conditions that made the attack possible was also complete anathema at the time from what I hear.

If you knew Turkish and could visit Turkish forums, you would see how far Cioss from being nationalist. Also continue to do ad hominem instead of discussing with him about the points he made.

You're right, it's unproductive to make ad-hominem attacks when we're having a rational debate about whether ethnic cleansing is good or not, I'll make sure to only address people's arguments in the future. I certainly won't suggest that anyone is a sex pervert who might have has spicy takes on age of consent laws just because they happen to use avatars of sexualized young girls a lot.
 
National Founding Figure Respecter 说:
You may not self-identify as one, but unless you're completely ribbed of self-awareness you have to realize that if you weren't Turkish there is no way you'd be as onesided as you've consistently been in this thread. Just as there's no way you'd make some of the comments you made on Israel earlier in this thread if you were, say, American and there's absolutely no chance you'd have the same positions if you'd been a Syrian Turk.
Isn't that natural though? I'm in the opposition on AKP's Syria policy but when whole world is coming at us with rage, blaming us to be genociders, murderers and threating with sanctions, you can not expect one to be stay neutral. Brunson issue hit us extremely hard last year, we are still trying to recover from that.
 
Cioss Julius U.X. 说:
National Founding Figure Respecter 说:
You may not self-identify as one, but unless you're completely ribbed of self-awareness you have to realize that if you weren't Turkish there is no way you'd be as onesided as you've consistently been in this thread. Just as there's no way you'd make some of the comments you made on Israel earlier in this thread if you were, say, American and there's absolutely no chance you'd have the same positions if you'd been a Syrian Turk.
Isn't that natural though? I'm in the opposition on AKP's Syria policy but when whole world is coming at us with rage, blaming us to be genociders, murderers and threating with sanctions, you can not expect one to be stay neutral. Brunson issue hit us extremely hard last year, we are still trying to recover from that.

I'm sure the invatson of Northern Syria will revitalize the nation in a big way and then it won't matter what the rest of the world thinks.
 
And isn't that superficial though? I probably said that I don't have enough knowledge or expertise on security and anti-terrorism to judge this military operation on that scale. But from an ordinary citizen's perspective, it worked fine enough. YPG ate huge blow, U.S. finally stopped playing with it's toy, Turkey kinda got that required safe zone next to borders, Syrian regime gain control or about to gain control on massive northeastern part of the country.

With the U.S. out of the equation, Assad Regime, Russia and Turkey can end this civil war and build a better Syria together. Russia and Turkey will work together in safe zone and that seems weird but cool for now.

Still, only PYD and it's armed forces YPG, with PKK is sad about these unfolding events. They lost their Uncle Sam support and probably dreams of independent country. Also took a huge hit in terms of both logistics and morale.

The benefits of the Peace Spring Operation outweigh the negative effects and losses in the long term anyway. I don't get why people still see this is some kind of Hitler level Nazi crime. If I was a PKK member who hates Turkey, I would just be a suicide bomber after all of this so yeah it's all about perspectives.
 
National Founding Figure Respecter 说:
You're right, it's unproductive to make ad-hominem attacks when we're having a rational debate about whether ethnic cleansing is good or not, I'll make sure to only address people's arguments in the future. I certainly won't suggest that anyone is a sex pervert who might have has spicy takes on age of consent laws just because they happen to use avatars of sexualized young girls a lot.

Why don't you discuss why Turkey is spending huge amount of money to kill a few Kurds in Syria while most of them already live in Turkey?
 
ancalimon 说:
National Founding Figure Respecter 说:
You're right, it's unproductive to make ad-hominem attacks when we're having a rational debate about whether ethnic cleansing is good or not, I'll make sure to only address people's arguments in the future. I certainly won't suggest that anyone is a sex pervert who might have has spicy takes on age of consent laws just because they happen to use avatars of sexualized young girls a lot.

Why don't you discuss why Turkey is spending huge amount of money to kill a few Kurds in Syria while most of them already live in Turkey?

Yeah ancalimon then we can talk about how Islamic numerology proves that Chinese people are a different species.
 
后退
顶部 底部