The tone of support - split topic from Quick questions/Answers

[saxondragon]

The Q&A thread is usually treated differently and less harsh. The rest - whoever deserves the acid will get it. And if you know how to use the mighty Sea-Fu you´ll get your answer pretty fast. But it´s tedious work and most people are lazy bastards.

This is a false statement if you actually take the time to read some of the comments in THIS thread, you can find plenty of venom. 

Secondly, the "Sea-Fu" is about a worthless piece of crap.  You type in key words and get hundreds, if not thousands, of posts that have nothing to do with what you are looking for.

Thirdly, your comment is precisely an example of what I'm talking about. You call people that choose to attempt to do something as ghastly as communicate in a forum (rather than sift through hours and hours of the search function), lazy bastards.  That is an arrogant, condescending attitude that is misplaced, erroneous and provides a hostile environment for new players.  I would love to find one of these gaming forums one day, that the moderators showed some intelligence and got rid of the elitist jerks.

This issue goes to the heart of my contention that modding, in it's current form,  is not sustainable.

We have a group of talented people who desire to donate their spare time to create something unique.  They are engineers, artists, writers, and designers.

Some of these folks wind up going to work on their day job, coming home and then get up on this forum to answer questions.  For years they do this.

There is no payment for doing this, no extrinsic reward. 
It is time consuming to answer and research questions, and frustrating to address the same question several hundred times.
The folks here and other forums try to set up a way to streamline the drain on their time. 

Most people who come here, desire if not expect, a level of professionalism.
They did not pay for this MOD.
They did not contribute to it's making.
Yet they treat the volunteers here as if they were paid customer support reps.  I assure you that they are not.

Is it unreasonable to ask for understanding and a modicum of respect  for the donated time and effort that people are putting into answering questions? No. It should not be.

The problem we have is how to handle the myriad of questions? 
We have published guides (which are mostly ignored). We have links to wiki's and  links to posts that all trying to help the players find answers to their questions.

Yet we have this unfortunate synergy between the volunteers who donate their time to help others, and the people who request help but appear on the surface, to be unwilling to help themselves and/or who seem to embrace the contention that their time is more valuable than the people who are volunteering. 

When this happens, the volunteers get impatient (I think the word you used was "arrogant and condescending"), when they feel their efforts are unappreciated.

Maybe you can offer a suggestion on how to solve this problem? 

Kindest regards,

Saxondragon

 

[CrymsonChaos]

I've recently started a new game and have started up the Kingdom of Pendor once more.  I control Ravenstern lands west of the bridge and Senderfall, and all Northern Fierdsvain lands.

But the D'shar have become a super faction.  They took all the southern Fierdsvain castles (the Fierds are down to Valonbray and Gunder's Lodge), and control nearly all of the Empire except for Janos and Valonbray.  Their military is quite simply MASSIVE.  The Ravenstern and Sarleon (Sarleon is entirely intact) have launched everything they have at them, but the D'shar are still defeating all of their forces, and are beginning to counterattack. 

With recent fighting, the D'shar can still muster about 4000 men.  I have maybe 1300 at my disposal.  Should I move against them now, or wait until the war takes more of a toll?  I have KotEG and Knights of the Griffon in my military, along with some supporting Ravenstern Rangers (haven't gotten another Qualis for Silvermists).  Biggest issue is, will there sheer numbers overwhelm everything I have?

 

[sidhos]

...Maybe you can offer a suggestion on how to solve this problem? 

Kindest regards,

The person I referred to, was being condescending and arrogant, without any need to be.  This is a forum.  A place where people communicate with each other.  If someone chooses to communicate with others by asking questions, they shouldn't be belittled or ridiculed.

As I have stated before, the search function, at times, can be next to useless. It has no way to put the key words into any context and turns out results that can be overwhelming to look through. That isn't a knock on you guys.  Even google gives thousands of nonsense results for every one good result.  The wiki is a super source of information, but it doesn't answer everything, and no one should expect it to. As you stated, it is all done as volunteer work.  That it exists at all, is really super.  People just want to play the mod.  They run into a brick wall, can't find the info, and they ask a question.  The modders, I'm sure, want us to play the mod, else they wouldn't make it.  So, no need to run people off by calling them lazy bastards.  No room for that in civilized conversation.

The work of the modders is appreciated and I think most sensible people understand that they aren't going to get support as if it was a product they bought at the store.  However, just because the mod is provided free in the forum, doesn't give someone the right to abuse others.  If a person or persons get tired of answering questions, just avoid the thread for a few days. I can't speak for others, but I would much rather wait for a response than have someone call me a lazy bastard.  Also, I seriously doubt that some of the responses I have read in this thread, would have been said in person, face to face.  You can't go around talking to people like that, without consequences.

Just to cover if I haven't said it for this particular mod, I appreciate and am thankful for the work the modders do.  Many of you show great vision and add an incredible amount of replayability to M&B.  Because of the work of the mods, this is my 2nd most played game (lifetime).

P.S. And my suggestion that you asked for, was what I mentioned earlier in the post.  When you get tired of answering the questions, step back and take a break. We aren't machines, none of us.  Everyone needs a break.  Also, let the other players come up with the answers.  Most of the questions can probably be answered by the more experienced players in the community.  Taking a break is much more preferable than being belligerent.

 

[sidhos]

  Saxon, and I must ask you this.  How do you consider it to be death to modding that I request IF someone is going to reply to the questions, to do so in a civilized manner?  This makes modding unsustainable?  That is an illogical correlation.  Now, if I was griping that I couldn't get technical support, I could understand your point. I wasn't even griping at a lack of response. I was griping at a very few that respond with belligerence.  If me requiring someone to communicate to me in a civilized manner is the dagger in the heart of modding, then goodbye to modding.  I don't need a computer game so bad that some punk is going to talk down to me.

 

[Harding Grim]

The work of the modders is appreciated and I think most sensible people understand that they aren't going to get support as if it was a product they bought at the store.  However, just because the mod is provided free in the forum, doesn't give someone the right to abuse others.  If a person or persons get tired of answering questions, just avoid the thread for a few days. I can't speak for others, but I would much rather wait for a response than have someone call me a lazy bastard.  Also, I seriously doubt that some of the responses I have read in this thread, would have been said in person, face to face.  You can't go around talking to people like that, without consequences.

The level of entitlement and off-kilter perspective is crazy.

Why doesn't it give them the right to call someone a lazy bastard? Do you mean to suggest that, despite the combined hundreds of man hours of their time they've invested of their good will, they aren't entitled to even one little frustrated post on their own forum?

Maybe they shouldn't do so. In fact, I agree that they should let experienced players answer and take up some of the slack. But they absolutely have the right to say whatever they feel like.

And what consequences? There are none. At worst, the player/most-delicate-forum-poster-of-all-time-on-the-Internet gets butthurt and says "This poster hurt my feelings, I'm not going to play this game. That'll really show them. "

 

[sidhos]

Why doesn't it give them the right to call someone a lazy bastard? Do you mean to suggest that, despite the combined hundreds of man hours of their time they've invested of their good will, they aren't entitled to even one little frustrated post on their own forum?

Maybe they shouldn't do so. In fact, I agree that they should let experienced players answer and take up some of the slack. But they absolutely have the right to say whatever they feel like.

And what consequences? There are none. At worst, the player/most-delicate-forum-poster-of-all-time-on-the-Internet gets butthurt and says "This poster hurt my feelings, I'm not going to play this game. That'll really show them. "

Creating a mod does not give a person the right to abuse another person.  The fact that you think so, speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.  And if you notice, I said there are consequences if you speak to a person like that in a face to face situation.  I guarantee you, you bring that attitude to me in person, and you won't do it more than once.

I suppose asking for people to post and reply in a civilized manner (which happens to be part of the ToS), is just too much to ask.  Heaven forbid you behave civilized instead of like a internet gang-banger.

 

[sidhos]

The level of entitlement and off-kilter perspective is crazy.

Entitlement? You are right, if I communicate to someone in a respectful manner and ask a question, I am entitled to a civilized response.  This is not an off-kilter perspective.  The off-kilter perspective is to think you have the right belittle other people just because you can play a video game better than them or because you modded one.  Actually, it shows me that you are a moron.

I'm done with this. If I can't find the info in the wiki, I'll just not find the info.  As I said before, I don't need a computer game so badly that I'll suffer the belligerence of morons and jackasses.

 

[Baguette Eater]

I suppose asking for people to post and reply in a civilized manner (which happens to be part of the ToS), is just too much to ask.  Heaven forbid you behave civilized instead of like a internet gang-banger.

God forbid you discover the true nature of these forums, then.

 

[Harding Grim]

I won't even address your because-you-play-a-video-game-better strawman.

As for this:

The fact that you think so, speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.

Yes. It does speak volumes of my character. It speaks to the fact that I have something called... human empathy? Have you heard of this concept? A group of people have basically volunteered their time to create something really cool for me, at no cost whatsoever to you or me. I choose to appreciate this and do something small like not asking a question that's been asked fifty thousand times. I will go out of my way to tangle with the broken TaleWorlds search engine and Google so that mods have one less question floating around.

That is what kind of person I am.

But you - God forbid a volunteer who's spent that much time working on the game get testy and offend your sensibilities, triggering your lecture on Internet forum protocol.

They owe you nothing. Repeat this to yourself over and over again until you get it.

 

[Default Username]

Have been out of sync for a while, but calling MadVader rude? Really? What drugs are you on?

Sure, he may be cryptic but he's more helpful than most of the veterans in the forum. And really, Sidhos, double posting? Did you fail forum etiquette 101? There's a modify button just in case you didn't know.

 

[sidhos]

Yes. It does speak volumes of my character. It speaks to the fact that I have something called... human empathy? Have you heard of this concept? A group of people have basically volunteered their time to create something really cool for me, at no cost whatsoever to you or me. I choose to appreciate this and do something small like not asking a question that's been asked fifty thousand times. I will go out of my way to tangle with the broken TaleWorlds search engine and Google so that mods have one less question floating around.

That is what kind of person I am.

But you - God forbid a volunteer who's spent that much time working on the game get testy and offend your sensibilities, triggering your lecture on Internet forum protocol.

They owe you nothing. Repeat this to yourself over and over again until you get it.

  No, you delude yourself.  You think creating a mod gives someone the right to belittle another person for simply asking a question.  That shows  me that you have the I.Q. of an amoeba.  You think you have human empathy, yet you defend belittling another human being for asking a harmless question.  Think about that for a moment if it doesn't strain your brain too much. What you have shown me is that you are a person with low moral fiber and no character.  I'm talking to you now, in the only way you seem to understand, so one final note.  When you grow up one day, move out of your mommy's basement, and get your teeth scattered all over the payment for being a smartass to someone that asked you directions to the nearest McDonalds, then maybe you will learn to act a decent human being instead of some wannabe gangster piece of ****.

You know, it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad, that you actually tried to say you had human empathy when you defend someone for being rude to another person for simply asking a question.  Talk about stupidity. Amazing.  So, someone is new to the mod, spends a bit of time looking for the answer to something, can't find it.  They come on the forum, and respectfully ask for help.  In return, they get some smartass reply.  Hmmmmm, I know where human empathy SHOULD come into play in that scenario.  Too bad you are such an incredible ass, that you don't.

 

[sidhos]

Have been out of sync for a while, but calling MadVader rude? Really? What drugs are you on?

Sure, he may be cryptic but he's more helpful than most of the veterans in the forum. And really, Sidhos, double posting? Did you fail forum etiquette 101? There's a modify button just in case you didn't know.

I didn't call MadVader rude.  He(she) actually pointed me to bring my questions to this forum in a civil manner.  Someone else called Mad out by name, not me.  There are other posts in this thread that are quite rude.  As far as double posting, oh gee!  So, the big forum etiquette crime is double posting. Evidently, being a jackass is fine.

 

[Dorrin]

  No, you delude yourself.  You think creating a mod gives someone the right to belittle another person for simply asking a question.  That shows  me that you have the I.Q. of an amoeba.  You think you have human empathy, yet you defend belittling another human being for asking a harmless question.  Think about that for a moment if it doesn't strain your brain too much. What you have shown me is that you are a person with low moral fiber and no character.  I'm talking to you now, in the only way you seem to understand, so one final note.  When you grow up one day, move out of your mommy's basement, and get your teeth scattered all over the payment for being a smartass to someone that asked you directions to the nearest McDonalds, then maybe you will learn to act a decent human being instead of some wannabe gangster piece of ****.

You know, it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad, that you actually tried to say you had human empathy when you defend someone for being rude to another person for simply asking a question.  Talk about stupidity. Amazing.  So, someone is new to the mod, spends a bit of time looking for the answer to something, can't find it.  They come on the forum, and respectfully ask for help.  In return, they get some smartass reply.  Hmmmmm, I know where human empathy SHOULD come into play in that scenario.  Too bad you are such an incredible ass, that you don't.

So the point in that was to demonstrate how you're not supposed to talk to others? Two wrongs do not make a right ya know.

The search on forums does suck, people can flip through a few pages and find a lot of the answers they seek quicker than someone else can drop by and find their question to provide that answer. Then there is the FAQ, that covers a lot of the questions we see over and over.. both in this thread and with a new thread about the same thing every few days.

 

[sidhos]

So the point in that was to demonstrate how you're not supposed to talk to others? Two wrongs do not make a right ya know.

The search on forums does suck, people can flip through a few pages and find a lot of the answers they seek quicker than someone else can drop by and find their question to provide that answer. Then there is the FAQ, that covers a lot of the questions we see over and over.. both in this thread and with a new thread about the same thing every few days.

No, actually I started out just making a complaint about it, without insults.  Apparently, I have to lower my standards to speak in a way that these folks can understand.  You are right that two wrongs don't make a right, but there is a difference between action and reaction.  If you hit me in the face, you are an ass.  If I hit you back for hitting in my face, that is self-defense. 

This thread is over 400 pages long.  There is nothing wrong with someone asking a question if they haven't found the answer with the search function and the wiki.  So you think it is proper to be a jackass towards another person because they didn't read all 400 pages of this thread?  You people really are amazing in your ignorance.

And to make a play on your own words. It takes no more time to respond to someone with a respectful answer than it does to spend your time belittling them for asking a question. It takes even less time to not reply at all if being a jackass is all you can come up with.

 

[Harding Grim]

hemorrhage of bull****

Not really, you're the one to begin the personal attacks first. Subtle, ala "speaks volume about you", but you went there first. After all that posturing about civility and courtesy, your true colors came through shockingly fast. Just one little post suggesting that maaaaybe the mods' impatience has a rational basis to it was all it took.

mommy's basement, gangster wannabe ****, teeth on the sidewalk

Projection. And you forgot like five other insults from the Internet grab-bag.

This thread is over 400 pages long.  There is nothing wrong with someone asking a question if they haven't found the answer with the search function and the wiki.  So you think it is proper to be a jackass towards another person because they didn't read all 400 pages of this thread?  You people really are amazing in your ignorance.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP. STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT. Use the unwieldly, nigh-unfunctionctional but still functional search engine, scroll down the page, do the ctrl+find. I trust that you're doing so subconsciously, but you are the one lacking integrity and forcing frames onto the other party. No one asserted you had to search through four hundred pages of the thread. YOU are the one who's lacking integrity, yet have the gall to paint yourself as being persecuted.

You are so sure of yourself that you have the moral high ground, but you do not.

But this is perilously close to thread hijacking, I just felt I had to state I empathize with what the mods go through.

And with that i think i'll follow my own advice and ignore further replies along this line.. This is after all the quick questions thread about PoP.

I will too. I don't enjoy getting into protracted, caustic exchanges either.

If you actually mean it about being 'done with this game if it means dealing with morons and assholes", then make good on your word.

 

[Dorrin]

No, actually I started out just making a complaint about it, without insults.  Apparently, I have to lower my standards to speak in a way that these folks can understand.  You are right that two wrongs don't make a right, but there is a difference between action and reaction.  If you hit me in the face, you are an ass.  If I hit you back for hitting in my face, that is self-defense. 

This thread is over 400 pages long.  There is nothing wrong with someone asking a question if they haven't found the answer with the search function and the wiki.  So you think it is proper to be a jackass towards another person because they didn't read all 400 pages of this thread?  You people really are amazing in your ignorance.

And to make a play on your own words. It takes no more time to respond to someone with a respectful answer than it does to spend your time belittling them for asking a question. It takes even less time to not reply at all if being a jackass is all you can come up with.

Lets start with the first paragraph there. We'll assume the hitting you referred to is throwing insults back and forth, or throwing them at anyone who tries to chime in on the conversation at all. How exactly have i earned this behavior from you? I have not. You chose to group me with those you see as insulting you and anyone who asks a question. You labeled this group, and me as asses.

Now for paragraph two. I did not say people need to read 400 pages, i said a FEW pages. It doesn't take that long, and asides from boredom at random points i'm sure most people will not be on the forums around the clock. If someone needs a quick answer the best bet is flip through a few pages of the quick questions thread, if that fails you use a real search engine to search parts of the forums. Oh and look, again with unprovoked attacks on this group you seem to have lumped anyone who talks into.

Third paragraph... Well once again you end it with insulting people. Got a trend going there. Perhaps if you stopped that (again, two wrongs do not make a right) people might be more willing to listen to what you have to say.

If the people on the forums are bothering you just go play the game, its meant to be fun, or another game, and ignore the comments that get you going. Always someone out there in life that clashes with our own personalities. It's not much use trying to fight them over whatever the problem is, just go do your own thing and don't let something you cannot change ruin your life and the good times you can have during it. And with that i think i'll follow my own advice and ignore further replies along this line.. This is after all the quick questions thread about PoP.

 

[Dorrin]

I've recently started a new game and have started up the Kingdom of Pendor once more.  I control Ravenstern lands west of the bridge and Senderfall, and all Northern Fierdsvain lands.

But the D'shar have become a super faction.  They took all the southern Fierdsvain castles (the Fierds are down to Valonbray and Gunder's Lodge), and control nearly all of the Empire except for Janos and Valonbray.  Their military is quite simply MASSIVE.  The Ravenstern and Sarleon (Sarleon is entirely intact) have launched everything they have at them, but the D'shar are still defeating all of their forces, and are beginning to counterattack. 

With recent fighting, the D'shar can still muster about 4000 men.  I have maybe 1300 at my disposal.  Should I move against them now, or wait until the war takes more of a toll?  I have KotEG and Knights of the Griffon in my military, along with some supporting Ravenstern Rangers (haven't gotten another Qualis for Silvermists).  Biggest issue is, will there sheer numbers overwhelm everything I have?

I know i'm double posting, but this is unrelated (and was a bit buried in clutter) to my previous post.

My advice would be hit them now and hit them hard. Get the biggest army you can muster and go on a castle/town snatching spree. Make sure you are marshal, but leave the vassals at home. Go take some real estate and strip the garrison (though leave at least 1 guy so the AI has to siege each castle) to replenish your losses. Do not assign a single castle, as your lords will feel inclined to defend their new property(I believe losing land raises their personal controversy, which in turn makes the other lords less likely to support them receiving further fiefs).

While the enemy might have you outnumbered they have so much real estate and several enemies. You and the other kingdoms could play zerg pong (keep them bouncing back and forth not gaining territory) for a few days or even weeks while you raise their marshals controversy as they lose ground. In the end its a war they cannot win, unless you let them annihilate the other distractions now.

 

[sidhos]

Not really, you're the one to begin the personal attacks first. Subtle, ala "speaks volume about you", but you went there first. After all that posturing about civility and courtesy, your true colors came through shockingly fast. Just one little post suggesting that maaaaybe the mods' impatience has a rational basis to it was all it took.

Not true, but I suppose you have to resort to lies once you realize you are exposed for being a jackass.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP. STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT. Use the unwieldly, nigh-unfunctionctional but still functional search engine, scroll down the page, do the ctrl+find. I trust that you're doing so subconsciously, but you are the one lacking integrity and forcing frames onto the other party. No one asserted you had to search through four hundred pages of the thread. YOU are the one who's lacking integrity, yet have the gall to paint yourself as being persecuted.

You are so sure of yourself that you have the moral high ground, but you do not.

But this is perilously close to thread hijacking, I just felt I had to state I empathize with what the mods go through.

If I , or anyone else, comes on this forum and civilly asks a question about the mod, and is responded to with insults, then that person will always, have the moral high ground.  As I said before, that fact that you can't or won't admit to this, speaks volumes about your character.

Lets start with the first paragraph there. We'll assume the hitting you referred to is throwing insults back and forth, or throwing them at anyone who tries to chime in on the conversation at all. How exactly have i earned this behavior from you? I have not. You chose to group me with those you see as insulting you and anyone who asks a question. You labeled this group, and me as asses.

If you defend the actions of the asses, then you are just as guilty as them.

Now for paragraph two. I did not say people need to read 400 pages, i said a FEW pages. It doesn't take that long, and asides from boredom at random points i'm sure most people will not be on the forums around the clock. If someone needs a quick answer the best bet is flip through a few pages of the quick questions thread, if that fails you use a real search engine to search parts of the forums. Oh and look, again with unprovoked attacks on this group you seem to have lumped anyone who talks into.

  And just because someone didn't find the answer they were looking for with the search engine or the wiki, and comes here and asks a question, the morons ASSUME the person didn't even try, and they initiate personal attacks.  Then coincidentally, when someone hits back, you get you feathers all ruffled. Hilarious.

If the people on the forums are bothering you just go play the game, its meant to be fun, or another game, and ignore the comments that get you going. Always someone out there in life that clashes with our own personalities. It's not much use trying to fight them over whatever the problem is, just go do your own thing and don't let something you cannot change ruin your life and the good times you can have during it. And with that i think i'll follow my own advice and ignore further replies along this line.. This is after all the quick questions thread about PoP.

Hmmm, strange, but sounds very familiar to my advice to people that get annoyed at the questions. Ah, but wait, the little gang of the "in" crowd can act like jackasses, but when someone hits back, you come up with the advice that should have been taken initially by the bullies, and this whole conversation is avoided.

Get out of the house and be a smartass to someone at the gas station who civilly asks you for directions somewhere.  See how well that goes for you.

 

[Vadir]

Why are you people having this argument on this thread in the first place? No wait, why is there an argument over something like that?

Let's forget everything.. a imaginary dragon has wiped your memories and instructed all of you to have fun. (and perhaps joining the great RP forum concerning the aftermath of this mod would do just that?)

 

[sher]

Maybe you can offer a suggestion on how to solve this problem? 

Maybe I have solution.

There is no problem actually. Just idealistic desire to "right all wrongs" and such. You can't change the habit of some people to talk first and to think later, to not search properly, to value their own time more than the others, to be dumb, ungrateful, unreasonable and... (I could continue). You can't change that no matter how hard you'll try. Just accept it and there will be no problem. You do not have to answer if you're not in the mood to do so. Either other man will answer it or that person will find another way to get info that HE needs. It's not YOUR problem.

But it is YOUR problem when instead of being reasonable you'll start to accuse other people of things you can't be 100% sure of. Maybe it's that very rare occasion when proper searching has failed, or maybe that guy just feels lonely, why not?

// I had not in mind someone particular in this forum, these are universal considerations.