The Tides of War

[LevonVeldspar]

I'm an old time M&B veteran but a relative Pendor noob (just entered the second year of my first campaign) and I was wondering if any of the hardened old timers around here have noticed any interesting trends in the way the game tends to play out. For example, I've never played a Native campaign in which the Khergit aren't promptly crushed by some combination of the surrounding kingdoms.

The Fierdsvain have been on a roll from day 1 in my current game. Took Ravenstern within the first week and Nal Tar not long after, and after a long stalemate war with Sarleon they've exploded into D'Shar land and left them with nowhere to hide except behind the walls of Torbah and Singal with no sign of stopping there. Does the curse of being a steppe kingdom apply to Pendor as well or is this just a unique aspect of my particular campaign?

Discuss!

 

[Sycrus]

In my experience, the Fierdsvain are always a very powerful faction, and many of the fortunes of the campaign depend on who they vent away against. The weakest faction is almost always the Empire. Sarleon and D'shar might or might not do well, it's very circunstancial, while Ravenstern is usually put on the defensive in it's relatively isolated lands. My current game is very peculiar, though. While the Fierdsvain is, as always, a top contender (took Ravenstern and almost all western castles from the northerners pretty fast), the D'Shar had an incredible winning streak, in which they grabbed Sarleon and Avendor in the same war, and then Ethos. Sarleon itself had, somehow, taken Rane and manage to hold on to it. So, I got a Pendor in which two Kings had no fiefs, and the most iconic Knightly Orders of their Kingdoms were fighting for someone else. Since then, all I see that loser Gregory IV do is cower away in Poinsbruk. King Ulric, despite retreating to Laria, continued being active and recently took and relocated to Seh Patar castle.

It really seems that the D'Shar have overreached, and are now paying for it. The Empire finally got it's act together and retook Ethos. Meanwhile, the Fierdsvain took Avendor and are setting their sights on Sarleon. So, yes, once again the Fierdsvain shows it's power.

Some time in the near future, I intend to start hiring out as a merc to the diverse kingdoms to try and restore some semblance of balance to the continent before I start my own bid for kingship. I bet this will mean a lot of battles against the Fierds.

 

[NicotiN]

It greatly depends on the game most of the times, no 2 games are the same.
The fierds roll because their lords are the most united and their teritory is safeish, the vanksberry armies are slow and the demonic ones usually end up in D'shar.Their towns always have something good to trade so i guess they are profitable towns and their infantry is the best siege force.
It also greatly depends on the player as a merc because i usally hunt caravans and in every war i get at least 10.
Sarleon will get a lot of wars, i usally am a merc for them.The empire lords can't get together even for a banquet.The Sarleon lords will cancel their campaign to go to a banquet.The D'shar usually blirzkrieg their war to victory, if they are defeated in the first days or by armies they are rather weak.The ravens are pretty good, except they are not agresive at all, their isolated terrain usally means always fighting jatu/mystmountain armies and the unbeatle fierds.
And that's good, the empire is a lot stronger once they gain fiefs, the d'shar with veteran troops are stupidly strong, the ravens will overwhelm with horses and arrows, Sarleon are all round good so if left unchecked they can roll as the fierds.
But as a general rule: Sarleon will be defeated/weakened first, always at war.The d'shar will conquer the empire.The fierds the ravens.Until the players comes in.Depending of his town of choice the war can go bad or good.

 

[Anth]

It's interesting that people have the D'Shar conquering peeps, because in my games they are generally the whipping boy above even Sarleon. Although I've never seen the D'Shar wiped out, they tend to end up with nothing but Torbah very fast. It never gets conquered because the king will just sit there feasting with a giant army and Syla Uzas(for some reason the Khan really like Syla in my games), while some minor lords go loot some villages and get their asses kicked. They NEVER seem to try reconquering their area, possibly because no one except the king has any army to speak of.

Sarleon pretty much always gets wiped out first unless I move to help them. Ravenstern will either hold the north or get conquered by Fierds, but rarely conquer much. Sometimes they will take Avendor and Marleons, but have trouble holding them because of the long distances. Empire will usually take Ishkoman and some D'Shar/Sarleon castles, but I haven't seen them expand much further than that. Empire will usually hold this area until the Fierds declare war on them, then lose it fast.

As a general rule Fierdsvain take a few early cities(it's damn scary to see them roll up with 2k troops right at the beginning). Unless I fight against them, they will eventually snowball out of control. It helps that Vanskerry armies seem to be the rarest minor army and generally end up dead as soon as the Fierdsvain marshall spots them.

I find that the best way to introduce unpredictability to the game is to oppose the green horde early on. If you can blunt their initial advantage, they won't clown all over the other factions quite so easily.

 

[Jeames]

I find that the best way to introduce unpredictability to the game is to oppose the green horde early on. If you can blunt their initial advantage, they won't clown all over the other factions quite so easily.

I second this.

 

[SpartanKing]

Hi ya'll.  I love this mod and I have been playing it for a little while now.  In regards to this thread, in my current game.  The two strongest factions are Ravenstern, which I am a part of, and Empire.  Sarleon is down to one city as well as the Fierdsvain and D'Shar.  The rest is devided up between Ravenstern and Empire with Ravenstern holding more estates.  I own two castles, one village, and one city (Valonbray) or whatever its called.  I took a city from the D'Shar and when I asked for the city I was denied.  I thought about rebelling but I fearful because I have not done it yet and I was to far into my game to test it out.  I have it setup that the game saves all the time.  For the future, if this happens again what would happen if I rebel at this late in the game?

 

[LevonVeldspar]

Well, you'd end up at war with Ravenstern and probably have a big ol' army heading to the city you just captured real quick, but what happens from there all depends on the state of your game. How strong are your army/garrisons? Who else is Ravenstern at war with? How's your cash flow? What are relations like with other lords, both within your current faction and the others? etc. etc. etc. As a general rule, starting your own kingdom is something you prepare for more or less from the very start precisely because of the sheer number of factors that need to be considered. It sounds like you haven't been doing that so if you do want to rebel, prepare yourself first! Or continue helping Ravenstern conquer the world! That's the beauty of M&B 

 

[Vahkn]

Every game is different, as any faction can be at war with any other faction. Most of the time that keeps things fairly balanced, but occasionally you can get a perfect storm where for example, every faction at war with the D'Shar and not with each other. That will wipe out the D'Shar within 60 days or so. Obviously that's an extreme example, but it's not uncommon to find 3 factions all at war with one faction. If they aren't at war with each other at the same time, then that one faction is going to start losing territory. If you're patient and restart enough you can deliberately set up a game where one faction will die off almost immediately.

All things being equal the Sarleons are the most likely to be killed off, as no faction needs to travel past or through another faction to get to the Sarleon lands. If for example Ravenstein is at war with both the Empire and Sarleon, then 90% of their fights will be with the Sarleons, while the Empire see's very little of the fighting.

 

[Kinsume]

Its common sense why Fiernd does so well, I'm new to the mod and even I see it.... The Berserkers.

Level 55 - 94 hp, 10 Ironflesh, 9 Power Strike, 9 Power Throw, 9 Power Draw, 10 Weapon Master, 6 Shield, 7 Athletics, 9 horse archery.

Every single one of those skills affects auto-calc battles. Hence why they curb stomp the other factions in the long run. Honestly the concept behind the unit is just stupid... furthermore I'm not even sure why they have 9 power draw, 9 horse archery and 6 shield when they don't even use bows, shields or horses. On top of that they have 9 power throw and I don't even think they have throwing weapons

 

[Default Username]

Honestly the concept behind the unit is just stupid

Yeah, because you can obviously create something better, don't you? It's well balanced as it is, and adds flavor and variety to the game, trading armor for speed and attack prowess. Might need some improvement, but it's not stupid. Heck, if your reasoning is true, the Empire and their gladiators could probably invade Pendor within a year without player's intervention.

And the reason the Fierds steamroll everyone else is not because of their zerks. It's their lords' higher renown and unity. You don't see that unity in many other factions. In fact, an equal number of Sarleon troops vs Fierdsvain troops will result in victory for Sarleon. And berserkers come in like what, 5 to maybe 11 tops for any Fierdsvain Lord except for some exception.

As for stats, it's really quite bothersome to edit all unrelated skills. It's pretty much prevalent in Native and many other mods as well, and I suppose that it aids them in auto-calculate, as they are higher tier troops. Don't like it, Morgh's Tool is your friend.

I don't mean to be rude, but seeing as you are new to the mod, and then calling a part of the game stupid when you haven't even looked at the big picture? You'll forgive me if I feel slightly offended that my favorite mod is being degraded. 

 

[iskar]

Berserkers may be strong in autocalc, but in any field battle were the player is prudent enough to bring archers that are just a little better than the crap the fierds usually advance instead of real archers the unshielded berserkers are just fodder and xp-farms.

 

[Kinsume]

Honestly the concept behind the unit is just stupid

Yeah, because you can obviously create something better, don't you? It's well balanced as it is, and adds flavor and variety to the game, trading armor for speed and attack prowess. Might need some improvement, but it's not stupid. Heck, if your reasoning is true, the Empire and their gladiators could probably invade Pendor within a year without player's intervention.

And the reason the Fierds steamroll everyone else is not because of their zerks. It's their lords' higher renown and unity. You don't see that unity in many other factions. In fact, an equal number of Sarleon troops vs Fierdsvain troops will result in victory for Sarleon. And berserkers come in like what, 5 to maybe 11 tops for any Fierdsvain Lord except for some exception.

As for stats, it's really quite bothersome to edit all unrelated skills. It's pretty much prevalent in Native and many other mods as well, and I suppose that it aids them in auto-calculate, as they are higher tier troops. Don't like it, Morgh's Tool is your friend.

I don't mean to be rude, but seeing as you are new to the mod, and then calling a part of the game stupid when you haven't even looked at the big picture? You'll forgive me if I feel slightly offended that my favorite mod is being degraded. 

You completely missed my point. The unit is unique I'll grant it that, it certainly lives up to its name. That's not what is stupid about it. The fact it has high skills in things it doesn't even use, is stupid. Weapons/armor/horses are all irrelevant in auto-calc battles. It only looks at stats, hence why they're such a power house for the Fierds in auto-calc battles. I can't speak for other troops as I haven't really looked at them, but its the same for other Fierd troops as well. Melee units have power draw, horse archery, ect all boosted when they're ground troops with throwing weapons. The troop creation was lazily done and probably consisted of the person just copy and pasting lines then editing them for each troop. I've built troop trees for mods before so I know how tedious of a job it is, however that doesn't change the fact that its because of that laziness that they steamroll the map in auto calc battles.

If its this way for the Fierds I can almost guarantee it is for the other troop trees as well. Don't get me wrong, the mod is great. I'd easily give it a 9 out of 10 due to sheer amount of content available in it. I'm having a blast playing it, but there are small things like this that lead to balance issues that could easily be rectified.

 

[iskar]

Ever considered it was done purposefully for balance reasons? The mod was created for experienced and advanced players that are expected to quickly take an important role in the fighting between the kingdoms.

The Fierdsvain are one of the weakest factions in actual fieldbattles. Their cavalry is weak in numbers, has only light horses and is easily killed; their infantry is slow and easy prey for archers due to some units lacking shields (two handers) and their archers are not even worth being called archers.

Therefore they might need something to balance this weakness off and the strength in autocalc battles seems to be a fair means of doing that. Furthermore they actually give a challenge to the player this way. You can no longer hang around for years ingame, trusting that the kingdoms will weaken each other enough to keep the balance of power, but you have to actually do something to keep it in order to create a situation where you can hope to survive when you first found your own kingdom.

 

[Kinsume]

@iskar

You clearly have no idea how the game works man. Sorry but I thought I explained it pretty clearly in the previous post, apparently not. The only thing that affects auto-calc battles are numbers and skills, unless the mod has the terrain modifier as well. Each faction's strength's and weaknesses are completely moot in auto-calc battles. A faction could have nothing but pure infantry units and still do well in them. The only battles their troop composition matters in are ones which the player is directly involved. For every single other battle that takes place in the game its done via number crunching and nothing more.

Obviously the stats weren't done that way intentionally since as several people have already stated Fried rules the map on most of their playthroughs even without the player's help. This is despite the fact that they have little to no cavalry, pitiful archers and some of the slowest infantry in the game. Its because of how buffed they are in terms of the skills they were given to dominate in the auto-calc battles. They aren't the only one with additional skills either, I took a look at the other troop trees as well, same stuff is going on over there though its not quite as bad. You still see some cavalry units equipped with polearms, 1h and shield that have power draw and horse archery skills. It wasn't done for the sake of balance, it was done out of laziness.

 

[M0rdred]

That is not entirely true Kinsume, there are other factors which influence autocalc;

Level
Equipment
Tactics Skill
Numbers
Skills
Additional Modifiers (Defenders in a siege get a hefty one)

MV did the autocalc system based on an open source one so can probably give you more detailed information if you ask nicely.

As to the skill set of each soldier, it was not laziness it was efficiency. SD built a system which created specific stats for several "tiers" of soldier which were then modified by class, role and faction. When you see an infantryman with Horse Archery, its because their tier gets a base Horse Archery skill. It was far better doing it this way, as it meant we could have the hundreds of different troops types that you enjoy in PoP, without it we would probably still be making them.

 

[Mad Vader]

Ah, those lazy devs.
PoP's autocalc is complex and you don't know how it's done, so don't presume too much, angry young padawan.

 

[noosers]

edit @MV: How you dare and ninja my sausage of string? 

@Kinsume

You clearly have no idea how THIS game works man.

As Mordred already kindly put out, PoP uses a different autocalc system than native. It´s just one of those little changes most people are unaware of. If you apply a little search you´ll find the post where MV discussed it in detail.
Basically, it generates something called strength points putting things like equipment (yes, it matters), skills and stats, put´s it into a handy equation and gives a value. These are summarized over the total army and compared against the strenght point of the opponents and used to calc it out.

As you may have noticed, some battles are over even before they begun. That´s another of the fine tunes and adjustement to the PoP autocalc system - if a certain party is too strong for another, it almost instantly crashes the oppostion.
Furthermore, line of sight of a player ticks in as well - hidden battles are happening far faster. No more three week horrible sieges like native used to have - and given I haven´t played native WB ever and MnB not for years, I do not know wether that still occurs or not.

The system was -j ust as most things in PoP - thoroughly tested and abused till it managed to pass the high standard set to the outcome of AI calced battles. It´s not perfect, but pretty good. The AI fights outcome came closer to a result if it had been a battle with a player army and an AI army - without the players impact.

Mad Vader and Treebeard - for autocalc and VIcky - did great work there.

Secondly, you´ve got no clue how the troops.py looks like nor how it works. As Mordred ninja´d again, it´s the efficent way it´s designed. You declare  a header, some preset skill and stat variables and you hand them systematically to the various troops you desire to create.

This helps and eases things up quite a lot and prevents the far more annyoing fact - a troops unable to use a certain piece of equipment because it´s unable to wield it due to missing skills or certain equal tiered troops having inferior or superior skills and stats compared to another equally level unit or their actual skills.

If it greatly annoys you, Morgh´s tools are your friend. Go and meddle with the occult. Happy hunting. Enjoy the brainiac editing 6 major factions, containing about 15-20 regular troops per nation = 90-120 troops, add another 30 for honor troops and another 50 or so for the remaining troopers. and you´re closer to 200 troopers you want handle. And that´s just troopers. We haven´t mentioned NPC companions, and all other NPC characters yet, ranging from the horse merchant up to your castle steward.

Good luck. You´ll soon realize it wasn´t done for laziness but for balance and efficiency. And trust me, I´ve seen and worked with the troops.py before and after that change. You´ve got no clue how significant the difference is.

Thirdly.

As has beem pointed out what seems to be half a hundred times so far concerning steamroll power of The Green Horde:

First and foremost, it was designed that way. Fierdsvine is supposed (!) to be most warsome and hardened nation in Pendor. Ever since 1.21 they were the dominant faction in most games. The old reason used to be their excessive high reknown compared to the other lords, something which was invented by SD and kept - despite a gazillion of complaints and tries to get rid of it.

It isn´t that simple in WB anymore. Fierds still have the most reknown and thus the greatest armies, they tend to keep them around as well due to their kingdom unity. They start with most lords, greatest armies, usually unmolested by spawning armies, and in excellent position to instantly war 3 neighbours who usually struggle to put something into the way of The Green Horde.

And that´s just the way it should be. It´s the way PoP was deliberately designed by Saxondragon. Fierds=major powerhouse. I reckon they fit their role pretty well. They aren´t invincible, but a hard nut to crack for the player.

Finally, about troops equipment:

Altogher with the various skills and stats assigned to a troop, it recieves equipment as well. According to it´s granted items, it picks one for each slot. So you end up with weird combinations and the odd Pendor Knight using his lance afoot because he´s too stupid to realize he was far better off with a sword. But hey, that was your fault for bringing a cavarly unit to a battle without horses.

So far as I remember the only polearm used on horseback which isn´t a kind of spear/lance is the polehammer/bec de corbin some units like the Mounted Pendor Men at Arms use. Quite powerful, and handed out - again - totally on purpose to those units along with other weapons

 

[iskar]

@iskar

You clearly have no idea how the game works man. [...]

I'm afraid you did not get my point: I suggested that, considering the extreme impact an experienced player can have on a war by joining several battles, and considering that the Fierds are the weakest faction when it comes to "player vs vicky" battles, their auto-calc supporting stats are a justified means of balancing this issue.

My second point was in line with what noosers said: PoP is meant to be a challange and the first message that pops up on the large map when you start a new game warns you of this. So there is little use complaining about what is designed to be a central aspect of the mod.

 

[LevonVeldspar]

The fact remains that, from what I've seen, (and as others have already noted) the Fierds are the only faction that consistently campaigns with the bulk of their lords and stick together the entire time until the war is won. Whenever one of the other factions manages to pull it together and do this, they easily take things for themselves as well.

edit: beaten

 

[Kinsume]

@noosers

If thats true and PoP's auto-calc is redone, then I take back my previous statement. If they're meant to steamroll every game unless the player directly opposes them then so be it.

@iskar

Naturally any faction that a player joins is going to thrive regardless of how over-powered or under-powered they are. As for PoP being a challenge, I'm finding it quite the opposite. There is certainly much to do in terms of content and tons of different minor factions running around, but it doesn't seem to hard. At one point around day 40 ish I had over 150k denars on me... Now I'm a little over 100 days in and running around stomping other lords on my own. Sure most of my army dies in the process but hey thats life.

On a side note I've now been to each town in the game several times and STILL can't find Sir Reis lol. Oh and before its mentioned, I play at 91% difficulty. Manual blocking, manual lance control, normal damage to friends, combat AI good, campaign AI good, combat speed fastest and battlesize 301. Only thing that is turned down is damage to player being set at 1/4 because getting 1 shot is annoying.

@LevonVeldspar

I've noticed several of the lords do roam around with eachother, but its usually only when the marshal calls on them. Other times they're just as spit up as any faction is. Hell they went and took one of the enemy towns, Nar' Tal or something over in the corner, then went and feasted and remained feasting even when the enemy came and took it back. Same has happened with a couple castles now as well. Not to mention the numerous messages I get concerning individual lords being defeated and captured, then I have to go try and save them.

If other factions are even more disorganized than this then I fear for them xD