the third time I played the game

[blainedeyoung]

I've probably started 8 or 9 games, but I figured out that I was doing something wrong and started over.  I've gotten to the point that I have an empire threatening to conquer the world twice:

The first time I did everything wrong.  I prefer not to talk about it.

The 2nd time I got my Str and Ag up to 15.  All of my companions had at least a 15 Str and a 12 Ag.  Three companions were designated Fighters and only got their Int up to 12.  Trainer 4.  When I stopped playing, my character was 39th level and Alayen was about 32nd with a Str 24 Ag 21.  He was a monster.  But even Jeremus was pretty tough: Str 15 Ag 12.  But I realized that it was taking me too long to get high-level party skills.

So this time.  I'm going to have 5 fighters, not the three above.  At 30th level, I expect Ymira to be a better fighter than Alayen.  Jeremus, Deshavi, and Firentis will be the Brain Trust.  They will never put points into any other attribute until it hits 30; for Jeremus and Deshavi it's Int, Firentis ups his Ag and his Looting skill.  Jeremus and Deshavi's primary goal is to max out their Wound Treatment, First Aid, and Surgery for Jeremus and Tracking, Path Finding, Spotting for Deshavi.  Everybody gets as much Trainer as he can. 

This time I'm going to put the Brain Trust into a totally defensive posture.  I'll give them Reinforced Huscarl Round Shields and a Balanced Military Pick and that's all.  They'll have as much Shield skill as their Ag's will allow.  And they'll spend the whole game hiding behind their shields.  I'll give them Heavy Steppe Horses, and I'll tell them to Hold This Position at the start of every fight.  I think that's just about the best defense I can give them.  Those three will give me very high skills at low level. 

And this is the radical part.  The part that makes me wonder if I'm can play it.  I'm going to leave my Str and Ag at 6 the whole game.  I'll put all my points into Int and some into Cha.  I'll take two points of every Str and Ag related skill. 

I've played with it a bit now.  It's like the step-up in difficulty when you move the from damages at 1/2 value to full.  I could usually bash a target with two hits of a longsword, now it takes three.  It used to take three hits from a longsword to kill me, now it takes two. 

Really the problem is winning tournaments.  Tournies are important to the game.  I'm not sure how to play without them, and I'm not sure about winning them with 45 HPs and a 2 Power Strike and a 2 Riding.  It's a test of skill.  And patience!

I want to get my Int up to 27 (I'll get my Cha up to 12 fairly early on and leave it there until Int 27; three or four books will bring up all necessary skills to 10) because I hear the game is just broken if you get Tactics and Engineering up to 10 in your main character.  You can win anything with the auto-resolve and you can build siege towers in just a few hours.  I want to see how that works, so I'm going to do it myself. 

 

[smothdude]

Tournaments with lances is a big cluster f***. You are lucky if you get a little butter knife to use in those.

 

[Wendek]

Get into first person view and lances become quite decent weapons in tournaments, since couched damage will instakill even with no powerstrike and superlow profiency. I only dislike javelins (and bows if my character is not used to it)

On-topic : apparently, after reading the thread of the guy who ended the whole game in 162 days, the Int build is indeed the best one, but also more difficult to use. You should probably just use a crossbow all the time since it requires no skillpoint (it does require more than 6 str though, unless using the weak Hunting Xbow) and you can stay faraway and stuff.

 

[Filou]

About your brain trust:
- If you really want to keep them safe you can use the Retreat command at the start of field battles (F1-F6 IIRC).  It usually works well, just don't use it in sieges as it makes them charge.
- You won't be able to loot their arrows, you only have access to the weapons they had equipped when they died, not all 4 slots.
- I personally keep these guys on foot with a crossbow so that they can put in a few kills here and there, but your setup should work too.

But really, these guys are your backup so if you find a way to stay alive in battles you don't actually need them as brainiacs. What you want is lots of training though.

Tournaments have never been critical to me.  I almost never participate until later in the game, and usually only in 2 or 3 towns where the format suits me.  I'm sure you can win in Praven with a crappy character.  So I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[blainedeyoung]

Wendek, it gets a lot harder to get up to speed with a lance when you have a 2 Riding, and you don't turn around so quick either.  I just did four tournies with the character I described (that's the way I start every game).  Praven wasn't having one, but I did Suno which gives you a lance a lot; it wasn't easy.  The one at Rivacheg was the worst.  It had a lot of swords swinging and me with not many HPs. 

Filou, good call on my Brain Trust's arrows.  I'd never get them. 

I didn't know you could order a select group to retreat.  Thanks, I'll check that out.

I don't want to use them as archers because that gets people killed.  If they only have a melee weapon and no targets near, they'll just hide behind their shields which will keep them alive.  But I guess I'll let them fight some because I want them to get levels and Trainer skill isn't going to help much at high levels. 

I don't plan on always avoiding combat myself.  You can't really; there are always the bandit ambushes that happen, and a field full of khergits isn't safe unless you have yourself surrounded by troops.  I think I'll end up wearing the khergit lancer armor and the khergit horse archer helmet, lordly gauntlets as always, and maybe sarranid mail boots.  It's a big step down from plate armor.

On the field, I'll be a crappy horse archer.  I'll circle every fight and shoot from behind or pick off isolated fighters.  I'm used to charging right in and smashing everything with a morning star; this will be different.  I gave myself a 2 Power Throw and I'm experimenting with jarids.  You ride up behind someone, get close, then jarid him, then finish him off with a pick.  You don't loose your shield, it's pretty safe if you watch out, and it's deadly.  You can carry 10 jarids, a shield, and a pick.  With a 2 Power Draw, you use a nomad bow which is a little better than the tournament bow.  I think the jarids might be a better option. 

When I get my Tactics up, I'll experiment with the auto-resolve battle.  I wonder if it changes the way you want to position and promote your troops.  Maybe I should read that guy's thread. 

Filou, I know two ways of making substantial sums of money: bandit hunting / battling and tournament winning.  Until you get a team together, you can't battle.  So, how do you make the money?

 

[Wendek]

It's true that less riding means less manoeuvrability (some character backgrounds can give you 3 or even 4 riding without the corresponding agility, though), however a lance is still preferable to a bow or throwing weapons if you have low proficiency and no point in power draw/throw.

 

[JosieJ]

Your ideas about a "brain trust" are generally how I play.  I use the group: Alayen, Firentis, Baheshtur, Deshavi, Klethi, Bunduk, Jeremus, Ymira.  Deshavi is the scout, Jeremus is the medic, Ymira is the backup medic and emissary, either Baheshtur or Klethi (who both start with high AGI) is the designated looter, everybody else is a fighter, although Bunduk can also be a high INT character if needed.  I'll put the "brain trust" in a separate group I call Medics and at the beginning of field battles I order them to retreat.  Works like a charm.  In sieges, they don't usually spawn in the first wave, anyway, but if and when they do spawn, I order them to either keep close to me or in an out-of-the-way corner since sometimes, the AI thinks the best way to retreat is up the ladder!

I've never tried a build with STR & AGI that low, so I couldn't tell you how that'd go. 

 

[blainedeyoung]

What I'm worrying about now is the loss of trainers.  There's another thread around here where a guy seems really concerned about how hard it is to train top tier men.  I've been thinking about it.

In my 2nd game, I have a 7 trainer with the book.  I have 4 Brain Trust members with trainer 9's or 10's.  Five others have trainer 4. 

If I follow my plan for 3rd, I'll have an 11 trainer with the book.  Two medics will have 10 trainer.  Six others will have 4. 

I may decide the fighters need more Int just so they'll have higher trainer skills, but I'll experiment with it and see.

 

[blainedeyoung]

This medic group that you have retreat before every battle.  What level are they? How did they get experience? 

 

[Filou]

If I follow my plan for 3rd, I'll have an 11 trainer with the book.  Two medics will have 10 trainer.  Six others will have 4. 

You can't go to 11 with the book unless you made some tweaks.  Only party skills can get an effective level above 10 via the leader bonus.

I think the core issue is you choice to use such low STR/AGI.
Going by this thread, an INT build should still be able to wear strong armor, ride a good horse, and get decent Weapon Proficiencies.  So 10/12 is pretty much the minimum.  You don't, have to rush like he did, but it shows how effective such a build can be.  This will also solve your tournament issue. 
He chose to go above 30 INT at the expense of CHA, which don't have to do.  Maybe you can leave AGI lower by choosing something that gets you to start at 4 riding, but wearing strong armor and using a siege crossbows for sieges are things you should really consider as critical. 

For ranged option, a crossbow is much more effective than a bow with low PD.  If you really want to stick with bows, choose a start that gives you the max PD, I think you can get it to 4.  But even then, don't expect to do much damage to heavily armored troops compared to what a siege crossbow can do.

For money the key is to solo bandits for as long as you can, then keep your party very small, and don't spend except for high tier weapons.

 

[blainedeyoung]

I think if your character has a 30 Int and you put 10 points into Trainer and you have the training manual, your character sheet will read under 'Trainer' a green number 11.  I haven't actually done it, but I'm betting that's how it will work.  I'm curious about how many XPs it gives.

I can totally get by with my Str and Ag at 6.  At 40th level, I'll have 6 Str, 6 Ag, and 30 Int and Cha. 

I wonder if you can actually get party skills up to 15 effective with the book; for example, you put 10 points into the skill, then you read the book.  You're skill should be 11 with a +4 bonus for being leader or 15.  But maybe that would just be wasting the points and you should read the books and put those two points elsewhere.

I don't think Trainer will be a problem.  I'm about 10th level and my party can already train up 3rd tier men easy. 

 

[Wendek]

According to the wiki, bonuses won't ever go above 10, whether it's a reference (inventory) or "readable" book.
[Edit]Re-read the article and realized it was actually explicit.

 

[blainedeyoung]

Yeah, it's probably better to put those skill points elsewhere.  In fact, I only need to put my Int up to 27 because books will raise all those 9's to 10's.  Thanks, man, good call!  But I will put Int up to 30 in order to get the skills I want.  So far, I'm 13th level and my Int is 24.  I've got 2's in every Str and Ag skill, 3 Inventory Management, 3 Prisoner Man, Leadership, and Trade.  1 Persuasion, Wound Treatment, and Surgery.  An 8 Trainer and 7 Tactics. 

I want 9's in Trainer, Tactics, and Engineer.  I want at least 5 or 6 Persuasion. 

 

[blainedeyoung]

Yeah, with a 6 Str and Ag it is too hard to do too many of the things that make the game fun.  Tournaments, rescue prisoners, bandit lairs, ambushes, and bar fights.  Make kills in battle.  Daring heroics.

So, I'm going to start a fourth game.  Actually, this game doesn't count because I only played it for a few days and didn't build an empire.  But anyway. 

I'm going to go back to a 5 companion brain trust.  Jeremus Wound Treatment and Surgery.  Deshavi Path Finding and Spotting.  Klethi Tracking and Engineering.  Ymira First Aid and Tactics.  Firentis Looting.  I'll get all of them up to a 12 Str and Ag, so they can ride chargers and use siege crossbows.  I decided to give them military hammers and a shield.  Making them with only two party skills apiece makes it easy to get the Str and Ag skills that they lack.  But really I want the Trainer.  In this party, I'll have a 7 Trainer and 4 companions will have 10's at 30th level.  That makes it easy to get high tier troops.

I'm going to get my Str and Ag up to 15, Int to 18, and every other point will go into Cha. 

 

[JosieJ]

This medic group that you have retreat before every battle.  What level are they? How did they get experience?

Sorry it took me so long to reply; I've been offline for a while.  I do use my medics in battle in the very beginning of the game--when you only have 10 troops, it's better to use as many companions that don't die in battle as you can.  So they level up a fair amount in the beginning.  You also get general xp for participating in battles in addition to "per enemy killed" xp, so even after I stop using the medics in battle, they are still able to level, albeit more slowly.  (I also do quests, so xp is shared among all companions for that.)

Also, I give all my companions some points in Trainer, at least 3 or 4 each, no matter whether they are high INT characters or not.  Since Trainer stacks among all your companions, you don't have to take it yourself over another skill that might be more usefully maxed, like Tactics or Engineering, and you are still able to raise top-tier troops quickly.