SP Dark Ages The Sword And The Axe

Currently viewing this thread:

shikaka

Squire
WB
Best answers
0
Hello Antonis,
I would like to ask about the formations, because it seems lots of other mods use the exact same, and they are kind of unresponsive.

So, in theory, how should the formations work?
I ask because no matter what I tried to do, the troops don't follow orders. What usually happens:
- I tell "everyone" to hold position
- infantry lines up to the left from hold position
- archers line up ahead of hold position

It is quite difficult to tell what the troops will actually do, for example holding a riverbank is almost impossible. I check what is a good place, go to the right of that place, and tell the troops to hold ground. Unfortunately, sometimes they and up in the river, because I cannot judge where they will actually end up (somewhere to my left, but where?).
Even worse are the archers and skirmishers, who take the suicide place in the front, and don't listen to my orders. (which would be hold position 10-20 meters behind my infantry, on the left flank).

Additional problem: even when I create multiple units, they respond to the same "infantry" selection. Eg. if you want two infantry types, for example spearmen on the two flanks, both will advance (even if you would prefer the left to fall back, and the right to advance.)
Additional problem 2: it seems that the battle line is filled in a strange way. For example in a battle all of my heavy infantry was on the right flank, and all of my new recruits in the middle and left. Not bad, but in an other event it was different (heavy in the centre, light on the flanks).
Additional 3: well, this is not strictly related to formation, but during a battle it is very hard to distinguish your units from the enemy. They all wear very similar outfits. I was not aware of faction color codes, but I start to see their use. If you plan on updating the troops, will you consider adding a color scheme to the troops? (this mod is not bad at all from this point of view. In the weekend I checked Viking Conquest and there, literally every faction except the picts use the same tunics. I didn't know who to stab :grin:)


Now, the easiest for me was to turn this feature off. I put spearmen in infantry units, archers in archer units, and shock infantry in cavalry. Infantry hold ground + advance 10 steps, archers stay put, cavalry (shock infantry) on follow me, as a reserve. That works, but you have to manually set this up every time.

So, if you could write a short summary what can be expected of the formation submod you use, and how to set it up in game, it would be really appreciated.
 

Antonis

Marquis
WBWF&SVCNW
Best answers
0
About formations, a friend, Tocan, author of the Tocan's Caradia mod, found a fix. But we mentioned that above, I think :grin:
All those points are fixed, plus, now, there are more divisions added and the troops are automatically sorted out according to their equipment.
There's nothing more to say, really. The formations now work as they should with added flavour and usefulness.
 

shikaka

Squire
WB
Best answers
0
About formations, a friend, Tocan, author of the Tocan's Caradia mod, found a fix. But we mentioned that above, I think :grin:
All those points are fixed, plus, now, there are more divisions added and the troops are automatically sorted out according to their equipment.
There's nothing more to say, really. The formations now work as they should with added flavour and usefulness.
Ok, but how they should be used? I didn't find a tutorial anywhere...
 

Antonis

Marquis
WBWF&SVCNW
Best answers
0
Ah, you mean the actual buttons? They are commands given by the f4 menu :grin:
There are a lot of options.
 

NorthWind

Recruit
Best answers
0
I have more pictures and reference material, but i don't know when i can post maybe next week, it's slow because there are some problems.
 

shikaka

Squire
WB
Best answers
0
I played some viking conquest, and it has some features which might work for your mod too. (and I also learned what don't actually improve the gameplay)

1: duels
There are three kinds.
- pre-battle option (charge/lead your troops/challenge champion to duel). Loser's army loses morale.
- low morale (soldier challenges you for leadership). Win give morale, losing gives morale penalty.
- random events (choose "provoke duel" when a random noble says bad things about your mother)

Basically a duel is an open battle map with one enemy. Your companions and troops form a big circle, the player character and the opposition spawns in the circle with own weapons.


2: meet NPC
In Viking Conquest actually talking to shipwright, armorer and smithy makes sense, because they can build a ship for you, or improve your gear. (rusty axe to axe, axe to heavy axe, etc.)
I think adding this to the horse merchant would make sense too (lame horse -> horse, horse -> timid horse)


3: goods merchant?
This is the only NPC which is basically useless on a map. I would advise to duplicate the "take X items to the pub in Y city" quest, which sometimes the guildmaster gives.
This quest is quite enjoyable (basically just travel and fight), but unfortunately very rare. Adding this would make this NPC useful, and would make this quest more common. I think both would be good.


4: what about duplicating the scout 3 locations (follow marshall quest line) for peace? The lord could ask you to "patrol", and check 3 locations owned by the faction. Same triggers: go near, scouted, next. This would add some variety among the delivery letter quests.


5: when a feast is held at a castle, you cannot meet the nobles unless you are a noble yourself. For this, Viking conquest has a nice mini tournament. All fights are 1 on 1, six rounds. If you win, you can enter the feast like in a city.

6: it is not in VC, but I think a new quest would be nice. Talk to traveller/tavern keeper in the pub, he will give you a fellow traveller NPC (priest, noble, bride, etc.) to take to somewhere in 30 days for some coins. A mix of "kidnapped girl" and the "take stuff to pub in an other city" quest. This could be a nice repeatable quest. I don't know how hard it is to implement.


I also noticed some things which theoretically should improve the experience, but in practice, it doesn't (in my opinion).
- going all-in on history make the game less interesting. The equipment in VC is: round shields, spears, one handed swords, one handed axes, tunics and mail. I really missed (useful) bows, blunt weapons, two handed weapons, kite shields. Not necessarily for troops, but these would be nice to buy.
- formations. At first I liked these (after finding out how to reset the distance they deploy from F1/F1). However, the AI is much more dangerous when they just charge and don't adopt a formation, so I turned it off. The issue is that they keep the formation no matter what, even when it means it takes the AI 5 minutes to go around a rock, or when they have my infantry in the front and my spearmen at their backs.
- big army sizes. I think an average PC could handle 300 battle size. When the lord armies are 200+, and there are 4-5 lords in the battle, it means there will be 3-4-5 reinforcements for both sides, which results in a ping-pong on the field. (advance - enemy reinforcements - retreat - own reinforcements - repeat 5X). The worst example of this is the final battle in the VC story mode. To me this means that lord armies should be around 100-150, and player army should be 80-120.
- theoretically giving AI lords fiefs on two opposite ends of the realm improves their patrol performance. But in the case of really big kingdoms, it is counterproductive. (a good example are the irish viking lords, who spend their time travelling between Ireland and Shetland/Orkney, losing their irish holdings in no time.)
- more XP, higher level troops. Theoretically this should make the game harder. Well, it really doesn't, it makes it longer. Since there are no good archers and cavalry in viking conquest, you can walk through every enemy army if you have high tier (mail armor) melee units. The thing is, I don't think higher XP/level troops solves anything, it just adds more grind into the game. What would work is: have more skilled, but more easily attainable high end units, but with no fixed heavy armor. (high tier troops should have a chance to spawn with tunic) But really, high tier troops with light armor only works if you can replace them relatively easily.
 
Last edited:

Antonis

Marquis
WBWF&SVCNW
Best answers
0
Hi! Actually, I have implemented warlord duels, for this next version, courtesy of Computica. :grin:
Same about the merchants, they will upgrade the quality of your items. Your suggestion about the item merchant is a good one, though.
As for tournaments, no, this isn't happening, sorry. There weren't tournament fights in that era. But I have removed the check for tournament winners, so now, you can join any feast you want!
The new quest sounds good too. I was looking to make a quest, it is something I never did.

Now, I'm very interested in historical accuracy. Not a dry account, but yeah, no two handed weapon weilding berserkers, mounted vikings etc. There are some tow handed weapons, the bows are (hopefully) more devastating, there are blunt weapons, yeah but no kite shields. In 860, the kite shields in the region weren't even dreamt of. :smile:
 

NorthWind

Recruit
Best answers
0
So you updated it onto Modb. Nice job! Double-sided axes and mounted vikings were definently not a thing. Kite shields were more of a Norman thing.
 

shikaka

Squire
WB
Best answers
0
Hi! Actually, I have implemented warlord duels, for this next version, courtesy of Computica. :grin:
Same about the merchants, they will upgrade the quality of your items. Your suggestion about the item merchant is a good one, though.
As for tournaments, no, this isn't happening, sorry. There weren't tournament fights in that era. But I have removed the check for tournament winners, so now, you can join any feast you want!
These are awesome news :smile:


Now, I'm very interested in historical accuracy. Not a dry account, but yeah, no two handed weapon weilding berserkers, mounted vikings etc. There are some tow handed weapons, the bows are (hopefully) more devastating, there are blunt weapons, yeah but no kite shields. In 860, the kite shields in the region weren't even dreamt of. :smile:
This was not 100% related to Sword an Axe, but now I have some experience with VC, and I think I understand some features which - there - don't work as intended.
For example the high tier units: very good armor (helmet+mail) but lots of XP necessary. I think that the intention was that they player should not amass them. But they are so good because of their armor, they waltz through the game, so I got them anyway. (I lost less then 10 when sieging with 250 strong army against 400 defenders) Brytenwalda has this problem too: if you get 150+ heavy infantry, noone will defeat you, as weapons don't cause enough damage to these troops.
I think what would work instead:
- relatively low XP requirement for high tier infantry
- chainmail should be added to their inventory, but tunics, gambesons, leather should not be taken out (so instead of fixed heavy armor, they have a chance for heavy armor)
- I think it is also historical that not every heavy infantry unit has chainmail (it was quite expensive)


[quote name="NorthWind"] Double-sided axes and mounted vikings were definently not a thing. Kite shields were more of a Norman thing. [/quote]

I am aware of this, it was just an observation. In Viking conquest they standardized equipment, removed most unhistorical items. But in the end it means that most factions are very-very similar to each other, you don't even have to adapt to your troops, it is possible to use the same tactic with britons, saxons, angles, frisians, norse. The only exception are the irish/picts (they have smaller shields, so you have to think of a counter to enemy skirmishers. With all others you can just ignore them)

What I am getting to is that there needs to be some difference between factions. If not equipment, than something else. I feel this mod is actually on a good track regarding this, each norse faction has some specialization which is not available to the others.



Double-sided axes and mounted vikings were definently not a thing.
Sorry about the double quote, but are you certain of the latter?
I mean sure, obviously it is very difficult to transport horses with 9th century ships, so they were most likely not taken to raids. But I was quite sure that "norse didn't use cavalry" is a myth. At least the bands raiding the baltics, or who settled in Novgorod, or danes warring east franks/wends surely had cavalry.
 

Antonis

Marquis
WBWF&SVCNW
Best answers
0
Ah, yes. Well, I agree about troops. Not only that, but with each higher level, the maintenance cost of the units increases, too. Which is a bit ridiculous, with an army of more than 100 high tier people. You end up giving them more than you gain.

Also, you'll maybe glad to know that after many requests, over the years, 2 new factions were added, Rus and the Galindians (Golędĭ)
 

shikaka

Squire
WB
Best answers
0
Ah, yes. Well, I agree about troops. Not only that, but with each higher level, the maintenance cost of the units increases, too. Which is a bit ridiculous, with an army of more than 100 high tier people. You end up giving them more than you gain.

Also, you'll maybe glad to know that after many requests, over the years, 2 new factions were added, Rus and the Galindians (Golędĭ)

That's very good news!
Do you also add the skill modification (maximum is attribute/2, not attribute/3)?

When you are done, just give a shout, and I will playtest for you!