The stonemason's Inn: Knowledge base for scening in Europe 1200

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quapitty

Sergeant Knight
At first I would like to give credits to Nordous and his fellow companions from the fabulous Nordous' Sceners Guild: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,163368.0.html
And DrTomas: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,127202.msg3659561.html#msg3659561
Thanks guys - you made me manage to create new worlds - which is awesome.
I'd like to update this list from time to time- so if someone finds out or knows something helpfull - please post!


You want to get 'into' a scene to change it? - Well here is what you will have to do: Access in the start screen of the game the option 'configure'. A new window will pop up with some tabs to choose. Choose the 'Advanced' tab and click 'Enable Edit Mode'
After starting a game you can now go into any scene (such as 'go to village center' via the menu) and press 'Ctrl+E' to open the edit mode within any scene.

BASICS:
First you may want to get familiar with some expressions that are used within the editor.

Terrain: is just the appearance of the landscape without any human additions (but of course changes within the landscape such as roads etc.).

Scene props: Those are all parts that will be visible within a scene and will give the scene its 'flesh'. Such as houses, walls, doors, chairs, bacons, knifes etc. For plants, there is a special group called 'Plants' but some plants can be also found in the scene props.
Be aware that some mods will use scene props that are unique for this mod and if you are creating a scene with those props no other mod may be able to display them.

Item kinds: Those are all the special items that can be accessed by players or AI, such as swords helmets etc.

Entry points: These are points (in the editor shown as arrows) where the player or AI appears after some special trigger is set to be true. Such as 'Player enters town on horseback' or 'player gets ambushed'. Those entry points are very sensitive and are very important! Unfortunately a lot of people like to forget about that.

Passages: Those are, simply said, equivalent for doors - A passage of 8 f.e. brings you (normally) to the castle courtyard if you access a door that is equiped with that passage.
So don't mix up entry points with passages and plaese be sure to check the deeper explanation of how entry points and passages work. (See below!)

And last but not least: The AI-Mesh. That is so **?!* bloody important - if that's not working properly the whole scene will be a mess in the end.
The AI_Mesh simply defines where and how the AI can and will access parts of the scene. Do not underestimate this. If this is done bad or simply wrong the whole scene sucks.

First thing to do to create a new scene (if you just don't want to change an existing one) is to create a very new 'terrain map'. Just go on the overview map where you can see all the villages and cities of your game. In the very low left corner you'll find a button that says "Terrain". Click on it and play around. If you are planning to make a scene with lots of houses and stuff just bring vegetation to 0. Otherwise you might hate yourselfe later, as the generic plants cannot be removed. The advantage of generic plants on the other hand is, they save performance instead of plants added as 'props'. All other things such as hills, ground textures should just have a rough shape, as all the detail work will be done later in the scene editor.

You are defining a square of a certain landscape shape in the Terrain editor. Later when you access the scene as a player, there are also added 'frames'  around that square that try to give the illusion of a horizon. Therefore you need to adjust the 'frames' to your likings - that brings us to the 'landscape surroundings':

Changing the appearance of the landscape surrounding the playable scene area is pretty easy:Find the town/castle/village you are working on in the scenes.txt and change the part
Code:
outer_terrain_plain
into
Code:
outer_terrain_plain_1
Code:
outer_terrain_sea
or
Code:
outer_terrain_steppe
or
Code:
outer_terrain_desert
Code:
outer_terrain_desert_b
Code:
outer_terrain_beach
Code:
outer_terrain_snow
Code:
outer_terrain_town_thir_1
Code:
 sea_outer_terrain_1
Code:
outer_terrain_castle_9
The outer terrain is always mountained to give the expression of a horizon. So pretty bad if you want to have flat terrain....

Building siege scenes:
If you are doing a castle siege scene just go via cheat menu to "CHEAT! Exterior" then you can exchange existing walls etc. against the equivalent items that have the addition "destroyed". Means exchange the walls_something_xyz against walls_something_xyz_destroyed. Only do that in the "CHEAT! Exterior" mode. Note that this somehow does not work with SOME props...
Place the siege ladders where it is possible (test wheter you can climb it) or place the siege towers path and test it. Don't forget to add the AI Mesh for the siege ladder or the siege tower!
I found out that somehow siege ladder 10m does not work.... You can check if it works by simply going back to the castle menu and "take a walk through the courtyard". If you can see anything in this mode that you don't want to see outside siege mode - you have probably done something wrong or simply the prop's "destroyed" or "siege" attitude does not work.
Cities:
Here is more variety possible - Use it! There is an extra siege scene for every town. The easiest way is to copy the scene_town_XY_center.sco scene you created (be sure it is completely finished!! Especially the AI mesh! Otherwise you have to do that job twice...) and rename it scene_town_XY_walls.sco. Then be creative and add smoke destroyed building and whatever you want......

Editing the terrain:
Is done within the scene editor. BUT - - You may wish to make a bigger scene (by the size of the terrain). The easiest way to do so is to go into the game and stay on the overview map (the map you are riding/walking from one place to another). In the lower left corner you find a button "Terrain". Well there you go: Play around, make it bigger by size and do some basic shape. Be carefull with the vegetation though if you wanna do a scene with a lot of buildings (like towns and castles) as the trees that are being set here are not removable or movable (at least not for me...)..... it is better to do that via "scene objects > plants". So if you have the scene shape that is close to what you like "copy" (Upper left) the Numeric and simply paste it into the scene.txt into the scene you are editing (BE AWARE that there might be more than one scene that has the same name/number than the one you work with - check and test first! AND ALWAYS KEEP A COPY of your "scenes.txt"!
After you have done this (hopefully correctly...) you gotta start the game again and go into the scene you wanna rework. Now you have to do all the fine tuning which demands a little bit of patience and training. Play around with "Hardness", Weight" and " Radius". I prefer little weight, little hardness...... and there is still "smooth" to work with. Don't forget the "Ground texture paint"... Well you gotta practice and find out for yourselfes what suits you most...
BLACK GAP? - You see a black border after you edited the terrain? Especially after expanding it? Well, just go into edit mode in the scene. Enter "Ground elevate" and press "Clear all". The scene's terrain will be set to what you copied into your scenes.txt.

AI Mesh
Now - That is important... Be sure to elminate all Ai Mesh that was assigned to the scene before you are editing now! That is really important. AI mesh tells every character where to walk. And also if f.e. they fall from somewhere - where to start walking again. That means - Don't connect AIMeshes where there is no "logic" connection. Means - If there is a wall - there also has to be a gap between the space on one side of the wall as well as on the other side of the wall. Don't connect AI Meshes then, because otherwise NPC will try to walk through walls. Which they cannot. Best is: TAKE A LOOK AT EXISTING SCENES! You will understand a lot from that!


Here is my list for the working numbers for scenes (some are to be updated):
Passages and entry points:
Passages have a "Entry No" and a "Menu Item No". It is pretty important to not mix them up!
From the inside or outside scenes your passage has to have the following "Menu Item No" to bring you to:
0 - castle (NATIVE: 0, related Entry Point from interior scene:2) Don't use it, can cause problems in siege!
don't use 0 and 1!!
2 - Castle, related Entry Point in the street/courtyard:2 [OLD E1200: 6)
3 - Town center, related entry point in the street depends on the place, the player comes from [OLD E1200: 7]
4 - Tavern, related Entry Point in the street:4 [OLD E1200: 9]
5 - Shop, related Entry pointin the street: 5 [OLD E1200: 10]
6 - Arena, related Entry in the street: 6 [OLD E1200: 11]
7 - Dungeon, related Entry in the street/courtyard:7 [OLD E1200: 12
8 - Castle courtyard [OLD E1200: 13]
Not in use:
9 - Enterprise [OLD E1200: 14]
10 - Garden [OLD E1200: 15]

([OLD E1200] 8 - town center (not pretty sure what the difference between 7 and 8 is yet))

Entry numbers from OUTSIDE are "0".
Now from interiors to the outside you simply have to give the "Entry No" the number of the entry point you put into the scene your passage leads to.
F.e. you are inside the castle and you give the passage "Menu Item No: 7" and "Entry No: 5" you simply have to put the entry point "Entry No: 5" in front of the castle within the street scene.
Just make sure you do not use the reserved Entry points such as player entry / guild master / guard etc.


Good to know: Entry points for people in scenes:

castle_exterior:
Needs two Passages: 2 + 7 (Castle / Prison)
0 - Attackers
2 - (ONLY NATIVE!) Exit player spawn from castle
1 - Player
3 - Sally
7 - (ONLY NATIVE!) Exit player spawn from dungeon
10 - Defenders infantry gathering point
11 - Defenders Infantry spawn point (including the defending player)
15 - Reinforcement for the defenders
23 - unfortunately nothing, should be a castle guard
24 - Prison guard
40 - Nations Footman or similar rank
41 - Seargant or similar rank
42 - Page or similar rank
43 - Regional Footman or similar rank
44 - Serf or similar rank
45 - Solidarius or similar rank
46 - Knecht or similar rank
47 - Yet unknown Soldier for siege scene (Archer ?)
50-55 Siege towers "Path". (did not check that for E1200 yet!)
Could not find more unfortunately - may have to deal with the fact something has gotten confused somewhere else in the scripts

castle_interior:
0 - Player
6 - Castle Guard / (Player faction when crushing remaining resistance ?)
7 - Castle Guard / Nurse when visiting a lady / (Player faction when crushing remaining resistance ?)
8 - ?
16 - Chancellor / Tournament knight / Lady, when 'visiting a lady'
17 - 31 Lords and Ladies
So only 15 Lords / Ladies can be present at a feast which might cause problems with bigger factions.....

town_center:
Needs 5 Passages: 2, 4, 5, 6, 7
0 - Player on foot
1 - Player on horseback
2 - Player leaving the castle
3 - ? (Crushing street resistance)
4 - Player leaving tavern / ambusher
5 - Player leaving shop
6 - Player leaving arena
7 - Player leaving dungeon
9 - Armorer
10 - Weaponsmith
11 - Guild master / ambusher
12 - Horse merchant
23 - Castle guard
24 - Prison guard
25 - High rank soldier
26 - High rank soldier
27 - Low rank soldier / ambusher
28 - Low rank soldier / ambusher
32 - 39 Town people

town_walls:
(Thanks to DrThomas!)
0 - Attackers
3 - Sally
10 - Defenders infantry gathering point
11 - Defenders Infantry spawn point (including the defending player)
15 - Reinforcement for the defenders
40-46 - Archers
50-55 Siege towers "Path". (did not check that for E1200 yet!)

Villages
0 - Player entering village
1 - Player when defending village
2 - Player spawn for Training fight
3 - Enemies
4 - Trained Peasant / Attacked at night
9 - ?
10 - ?
11- Village elder
12 - ?
32 - 39 Villagers
45 - Nervous man

Taverns
0 - Player
9 - Tavern keeper
16 -
17 - Mercenary
18 - Mercenary / Companion
19 - Ransom Broker / Companion / Traveller
20 - Ransom Broker / Traveller / Bard / Companion
21 - Ransom Broker
22 - Traveller
23 -
24 -
Probably 16 - 24 NPC of any kind

Prisons
0  - Player
16 - 31 Prisoners

Arenas
Tournament
0 - 7 Team 1 North
8 - 15 Team 2 South
16 - 23 Team 3 West
24 - 31 Team 4 East
32 - Fighter 1 South

Melee
33 - Fighter 2 East
34 - Fighter 3 North
35 - Fighter 4 West
36 - Fighter 5 South East
37 - Fighter 6 North East
38 - Fighter 7 North West
39 - Fighter 8 South West

50 - Player entering arena / talking to Arena Master
51 - Arena Master
52 - Arena Master
56 - 59 Fighters center ?

Shops
0 - Player
9 - Merchant

Another thing: Castle / Prison interiors:
- if you changed the appearence of a castle or a city you may want or have to change the interior scenes as well. That is done within the scripts.txt. That means you are not changing interior scene props (though you could work with that as well and there are some) but there are several presets you can use. All you have to do is to change the text. F.e.:
scn_castle_16_interior castle_16_interior 1 interior_castle_n bo_interior_castle_n -100.000000 -100.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0
  1  100000
  1  2379
0

This means as interior preset, castle "n" is used where you can put all scene props like chairs tables etc. inside
If you want to change the castle to castle k, just change the red part of the following line from 'n' into 'k':
scn_castle_16_interior castle_16_interior 1 interior_castle_k bo_interior_castle_k -100.000000 -100.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0
  1  100000
  1  2379
0
Now I guess you'd like to now what is what? Well - there you go (Beware 25 screenshots!)
List of castle_interiors:
Ignore banners, tables and cups - they are not included  :wink:
castlea.jpg

castleb.jpg

castlect.jpg

castledg.jpg

castlee.jpg

castlef.jpg

castleg.jpg

castlehq.jpg

castlei.jpg

castlej.jpg

castlek.jpg

castlel.jpg

castlem.jpg

castleni.jpg

castleo.jpg

castlept.jpg

castleq.jpg

castlerf.jpg

NO CASTLE S!
castlet.jpg

castleu.jpg

castlevp.jpg

castlew.jpg

castlex.jpg

castley.jpg

castlezh.jpg

There are a few more but I'll leave it with that for now
Here are some more (without pictures):
Code:
interior_castle_g_square_keep
Code:
arabian_interior_keep_a
Code:
viking_interior_keep_a

It is the same with prison interiors.
Just look for the line:
scn_castle_16_prison castle_16_prison 1 interior_prison_a bo_interior_prison_a -100.000000 -100.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0
  0
  0
0

Well, no prison interiors pictures so far - just try and post  :smile:
And the same for taverns:
Code:
interior_rhodok_houses_b
Code:
interior_rhodok_houses_d
Code:
interior_tavern_b
Code:
interior_tavern_f
Code:
interior_tavern_g
Code:
interior_town_house_a
Code:
interior_town_house_f
Code:
interior_town_house_i
Code:
interior_town_house_j
Code:
viking_interior_tavern_a
Code:
interior_town_house_steppe_c
Code:
interior_town_house_steppe_g
And of course there are different shop scenes........

You are bored that there is only one or two ladders in siege scenes? Well unless the code is changed there is no real way to change that. Read more here:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,214344.msg5408512.html#msg5408512
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,200478.msg6704709.html#msg6704709

Anything wrong? Bad? Stupid? Not pedagogic enough? Feedback welcome!
This will be updated (hopefully)
 
This is very useful especially for the entry points and the passages. I had noticed a gap between native's passge numbers and europe 1200s'. Now i know i wasnt crazy.

Maybe you could add in your first post editing the terrain? You know, when you're on the world map, you can select "terrain" in the bottom left and create the terrain youd like. Then you copy the code, paste into your scenes.txt file of a specific scene and go back ingame and then start editing the newly modified scene.
And also about modding the Siege scene, which is not always easy to find out.
 
Thanks alot for that quapitty. There has been a while since :mrgreen: but I find it very useful, the guide every scener must have in the pocket.
I used it a lot, and I'm still using it.
 
Wow, thanks a lot - for the praise very much, I am really very glad it made some use for you, you are very welcome! - and for bumping it to the top. That way I don't have to check page 7 or more..... for a while, cause I keep forgetting some of the numbers every time, that's also a reason why I started that topic  :mrgreen: We'll see on  Nordous'! Keep it up!
 
Man you guys are smart!!!  I don't know how you make sense of all those numbers? 

I was just curious Quapitty....  is it possible to incorporate the "Destructible Door" from Warband Multi-player into the MOD. 

I do believe that at least one mod has done it in the past but I don't remember which one. 

Also from the multiplayer code, the ability to raise an lower the castle gates?


I can't be the only guy who would think that's cool for single player?    :cool:
 
It would be very cool indeed. The destructible door is something I already implemented in one or two scenes. But not as the main defending/attacking spot, but just as a goody. Because: If you do that in single player, the AI guys start to destroy those doors, no matter whether they are the defenders or the attackers. Which ruins everything... And I don't know how to get movable drawbridges to work in singleplayer unfortunately. I'd guess one of the main problem is that if you are creating an AI-mesh (that tells the AI where to walk and where there are passages through walls, like doors), the AI will rally in front of the drawbridge, no matter if it is open or not. They cannot make a difference between 'open' and 'closed'. The reason why that works in MP is that real people with brains play. And the code to get it working in SP is just another question of not too little importance.
 
Awesome Quapitty!  At least it's good to know you've fooled around with it.

A final thought...I sure you've heard of Lord Samuel (heck you're probably buddies :smile: )  but as soon as you mentioned the AI-mesh, I immediately thought of his thread:

NE Sieges & Scenes Pack - get a second ladder for your sieges! 9th Jan. 2013
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,178784.0.html

Example pics from the thread in
Grunwalder_Castle3.jpg


Uxhal
Uxhal.jpg

I'm sure someone like you could understand what he's done on a technical note.  I just read it read one night because I admired all the hard work and found it interesting. 

I know double ladders is not for Europe 1200 but for sure if anyone would know the answers to the AI-Mesh thingy it'd be Lord Samuel.

Best to you, "O"
 
Thanks for the link, it's appreciated. I already saw it. The point is, that Lord Samuel did not change the game mechanics as far as I can see. He just added a second ladder. In some cases this works and in some it doesn't:
Lord Samuel said:
Rindyar Castle is a bit... difficult. Sometimes, the Attacker's Army won't use the 2nd ladder, sometimes it will. Don't know why, exactly. Tried everything. The reinforcement wave will do exactly the contrary, though. It won't take the 1st ladder.
I also made two or more new scenes that have two ladders. Can't remember right now how many at all. The point is, it never reall works 100%. In some cases better than in others. I also tested some scenes with a second ladder but it did not work out at all for my taste. I remember posting screens of that somewhere here.

Again: The main problem with a lot of scenes will be that there is only one defined main defending spot where the infantry gathers. That's how the game works and to change that you must know pretty well how to code (I don't), if it is possible at all. The two ladders have to be pretty close to that defending spot. Otherwise one ladder will be more or less unguarded or only defended by archers during the first attack. All reinforcements will only gather at the main spot, that means after a first wave of an attack the Archer spots won't be used as defending spots. Believe me, I tested some of my own scenes and I was not really satisfied very often and got rid of a second ladder. I found it very boring, that 80 - 100% of my comrades chose one ladder, while I can walk up the other one, almost unchallenged (and if you use 'follow me' it may become almost a free run).

But to see my good will, just check out at least two scenes I made with two ladders, that work fine in my oppinion:

Egmont at the North Sea
Regensburg, South East HRE

just as Examples, there are others to be found.
 
quapitty said:
Just wanted to bring that one up again - just in case someone may want to scene.

Wow Quapitty...I remember this thread, long time no see.

So one thing that I've discovered since then was once a again Destructible doors.  Whilst playing the MOD Hispania 1200 there are some really cool castle sieges in which you have to destroy doors.  In Hispania 1200 the siege at Xativa...WOW, I love the destructible doors and how the siege is not the classic everyone just gangs up at the ladder and gets killed.  It's really fun to feel like you have to attack and utilize MORE areas of the castle...it feels like a running siege.  A few of the castles in the mod are that way...where you have to take and secure different sections of the castle, with multiple choke points. 


I think perhaps they solved the problem that you listed along time ago about ALL people wanting to chop doors...by strategically placing the defenders in key areas.  When you break down a door and then rush in, it seems only then do the defenders come rushing up.
 
Hey Subitai, yeah - well, I don't know. I haven't touched scening for a while, since this mod was on a halt with no perspective. But I sure did some research on how to work with destructible doors (as well as two or more ladders) - and I love them/the idea of it. I am more than open to use them. But in the end it will have to make sense, otherwise gameplay sucks. Maybe I'll get into it again or some fresh guy may do so - and I am going to read through my fairy tales books instead.
 
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