The status of the "north american professional community"

[Adelade]

So, before I begin my rant I would like you all to take a close look at the NA clans, there are eleven clans listed.. 11 clans in the whole NA community. A small number, is it not? I will list the real reasons why and why several clans, not at all are a main reason why new players or old players who never joined a clan are intimidated from creating a clan or staying to continue playing native.

1. Rampant elitism throughout the heads of several large clans..I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

2.Those clans who are not led by elitists allow the elitism to be depicted as what the NA community is. This group of players in clans only consists of 20-30% of the playerbase while they are what it is viewed as.. When is the last time anyone who has not played native for years created a clan or had anything to do with any kind of event in native?

3.Alienation of anyone else from entering the native warband scene by childish notions of several community members that they are better than everyone else because they have played for longer and that that it gives them the right to act like pompous uptight douchebags.. Is this a large online high school, or what?The attitude of these people keep the warband community shrinking instead of growing.

4. When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting? Clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skilled because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to  no skill players.

 

[MaHuD]

I am not active in the NA section, but I can say that Elitism is something that is part of the entire MB community. Though in my opinion, it has been degrading. It used to be far worse.

 

[KissMyAxe]

I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

If that was a pickup party, as a party admin I'd appreciate if you PM'ed me the details of the incident.

Is this a large online high school, or what?

It might just  be that.

When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting?

Well, I know a few open-recruiting clans (GK and Rebels come to mind, but also Balion Guard is not picky about the skill).

I'll agree with you that elitism is strong, but it has been less prevalent with the (partial) departure of BkS. Still, instead of just crying about it, see what can you specifically do to change this situation. I learned it the hard way that demanding change in this community doesn't get you anything. You gotta go in yourself and do the work. No other way.

PS: Also, for the small player base that we have, 11 clans looks like a great number. Idk why you're unhappy about it.

 

[Juve]

1. Rampant elitism throughout the heads of several large clans..I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

If you're talking about the pickup party I attended last night, then it was a poll ban that got the poor guy kicked from the server. I was surprised it passed, and doubly surprised that polls weren't removed in the server settings once the pickup party got underway. A rather unfortunate event, as the NA community definitely needs some new blood.

 

[KoA John]

Not sure how it works in other clans but we recruit people pretty often compared to BkS who recruits once a year And yea its nice if they are skilled but they don't need to be godlike to join

 

[Catholic]

I'm going to walk through your post point-by-point, because that's what I do.

1. Rampant elitism throughout the heads of several large clans..I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

That was as Juve said. It was an isolated incident. The teams were fighting each other, the stranger is really bad and sits behind at spawn and doesn't listen to his team, and someone (Blacktide?) goes "ban him" and everyone hits 1 for ****-all reason. He later came to my team's teamspeak, asking me to unban him, but there's little I could have done. You can't unban a temporary ban.

Secondly, two hours? I was running the show, mate. It was one of the fastest huge pickup parties we've ever got going. If I recall, it took less than 20 minutes to get everyone in the server, my duel with Blacktide and then maps changed. Could be an error of hindsight, but I don't recall waiting two hours. Juve or someone please confirm.

And pickup parties aren't clan events. You're claiming clans are elitist. What clans exactly are elitist to you? I know Balions has an open-door policy. TMW has an open-door policy. Rebels accepts everyone whether they look like they're an actual human or not ( I'm just messing with you, friends). Besides BkS, what example can you provide me with elitism in clans?

2.Those clans who are not led by elitists allow the elitism to be depicted as what the NA community is. This group of players in clans only consists of 20-30% of the playerbase while they are what it is viewed as.. When is the last time anyone who has not played native for years created a clan or had anything to do with any kind of event in native? 

What?

Again, please, for the love of God, provide some examples along with baseless assumptions. The lack of new players in the community isn't grounds for saying that new players in the community are discriminated against.

These are slightly "off" examples, because these players have been active, just not in the community - but Binary and his pickup parties are an example. Tesla and his pickup parties before Binary. William and his sudden appearance in the community, offering to host a tournament. None of these people are new, but the majority of them really weren't all that active on the forums before they decided, "Oh hey. I can do something for this place." And nobody hated on them because of it.

In fact, the entire "honorable" point of pickup parties is to get the people who aren't involved in clans or the competitive scene to have some fun in leading and playing in an organized scrim. You won't see that in the EU scene.

3.Alienation of anyone else from entering the native warband scene by childish notions of several community members that they are better than everyone else because they have played for longer and that that it gives them the right to act like pompous uptight douchebags.. Is this a large online high school, or what?The attitude of these people keep the warband community shrinking instead of growing.

What? Have you seen this thread? Aside from the slightest bit of trolling at the beginning by Sota (not an NA player.... debatably) the thread was entirely helpful and multiple clans offered to have this complete stranger.

4. When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting? Clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skilled because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to  no skill players.

Since Balions, TMW, Rebels, you name it....

And it's not like TMW and Balions are fringe clans either.

 

[Courtney]

Pubbers join in on pickups all the time. Was that particular pubber trolling or being annoying in anyway? I can think of at least 4 clans (yours being one of them) on top of my head that have an open-door policy to new recruits, at any skill level, who take the game more seriously and are interested in improving themselves and contributing to the clan. Just step into GK_Siege server and see how much they've multiplied. Elitism exists in every game, not just in WB. Finally, this game is much more popular in Europe than it is here; that's why the NA community is smaller than EU.

So, before I begin my rant I would like you all to take a close look at the NA clans, there are eleven clans listed.. 11 clans in the whole NA community. A small number, is it not? I will list the real reasons why and why several clans, not at all are a main reason why new players or old players who never joined a clan are intimidated from creating a clan or staying to continue playing native.

1. Rampant elitism throughout the heads of several large clans..I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

2.Those clans who are not led by elitists allow the elitism to be depicted as what the NA community is. This group of players in clans only consists of 20-30% of the playerbase while they are what it is viewed as.. When is the last time anyone who has not played native for years created a clan or had anything to do with any kind of event in native?

3.Alienation of anyone else from entering the native warband scene by childish notions of several community members that they are better than everyone else because they have played for longer and that that it gives them the right to act like pompous uptight douchebags.. Is this a large online high school, or what?The attitude of these people keep the warband community shrinking instead of growing.

4. When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting? Clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skilled because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to  no skill players.

 

[Juve]

Juve or someone please confirm.

Confirmed, though how long the dude waited is irrelevant. Him being poll banned really sucked regardless.

 

[Gelden]

Sounds like an isolated situation... I'm sorry you got butt-hurt by it and decided to make this thread.  I'm not going to say your views on the community are deluded, but speaking from wKs perspective, we are very open about accepting and helping new members, whether you're new or have been in the community for a while.  There really aren't many new players applying to us though.

I would say some elitism exists, but there are plenty of non elitists to balance the equation.

 

[? M]

Nobody cares what you think about elitism, peasant. Get on my level before you even post.

 

[MrNomNom]

na community is growing smaller, but it's been growing smaller for the past 2 years. the game is over 3 years old with very little changes added, the community is going to get smaller naturally as people lose interest. elitism doesnt have much, if anything, to do with it.

Nobody cares what you think about elitism, peasant. Get on my level before you even post.

**** outta here m, i could count the number of pixels in your videos on one hand

 

[Fehnor]

NA was about the size it is now when I started playing. Warband is hard (happens to be a clan that was created since I started playing), and the learning curve is a far bigger block than elitism.

Not many new clans pop up, because there aren't many skilled players who aren't in clans. SF was the last I know that really took off, and that was Kush's third(?) native clan. They're still around and kicking, but ask him how difficult it was to find enough skilled players that were looking for a clan for a 5 man team.

Elitism is in every competitive game, and frankly, there's an insignificant amount compared to similar games.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Silly thread.

Warband in general both in Europe and the US has a small scene because it is not an extremely popular game and as others have said it has a steep learning curve which drives off many new players.

The only thing that would change that is if suddenly there was an influx in players, which it won't because of dated graphics and simply having a smaller audience than say the latest Battlefield game.

Elitism may be annoying but it isn't what is slowly killing this game, which is simply time itself and the lack of anything new.

 

[Kherven]

4. When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting? Clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skilled because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to  no skill players.

Depending on what you mean by "open recruiting" almost every clan is open recruitment. The difference is warband isn't like NW where you walk into a server and get absolutely bombarded by "Join my ###th Regiment!" after seeing you're clanless. Most clans take on the philsophy that if you're interested, you'll contact us. Shop around, see who you like in game and on the forum. But the thing is we're not going to reach out to you first because A: established clans don't need to and B: The first requirement for almost every clan is showing that initial effort and interest.

I have seen very few clans that have a skill requirement (They usually don't last). 

Matter of fact, looking through the thread below, I believe at LEAST 7/11 of them are open recruitment. I only know of 2 for sure that have skill requirements, one of which is hardly active.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,203315.0.html

 

[Orion]

Shop around, see who you like in game and on the forum. But the thing is we're not going to reach out to you first because A: established clans don't need to and B: The first requirement for almost every clan is showing that initial effort and interest.

Quite true. Part of the reason Native clans don't recruit so aggressively compared to Napoleonic Wars is because a Native clan match is between 5 and 10 guys per team. A Napoleonic Wars line battle brings in regiments with 20+ players each. They have different needs, and I had a hard time enjoying line battles because of how impersonal they and the regiments that play in them are. You're just another guy in the line. In Native, your best bet for getting into a clan is getting to know its members and hanging out with them. As Kherven also said, most clans don't have a strict skill requirement. Skill is something that can be developed, but it doesn't trump personality.

 

[CoolMB]

With regard to the whole "elitism" comment, I understand where you are coming from. Obviously there are going to be certain individuals in the community who let their status get to their head, but this is not something specific to Warband...it happens everywhere in life. It is simply unavoidable. In situations where power (no matter how insignificant it is) is available, there will always be douchebags who are there to drink it all up.

Personally, I've seen a lot of great things in the community, and I've seen a lot of bad things, but overall I'd say most experienced Warband players are not purely elitist pricks. For example, this year we managed to get try-outs implemented into the Nations Cup. Though it was more of a symbolic move, it was a step away from this elitist mentality you are trying to expose.

With all of that said, I don't believe your post deserves to be shot down entirely. For a new player, this community can be, at times, very brutal. To be honest, however, there isn't anything we can do about that. This is a community that has been built over the years, and with a new game approaching, the possibility of making any changes (though I'm not exactly sure what I mean by changes) seems impossible and unnecessary.

For the time being, the most we can do is be helpful and understanding of newer players. I mean for ****s sake people, it's not their god damn fault that they aren't good at a difficult game they just ****ing bought. I digress......As a community we must be supportive of all of our members, and I believe that overall (with Mok as a MAJOR exception) we are doing a good job.

 

[Mr.X]

Sorry, you're post is about 2 years too late.

So, before I begin my rant I would like you all to take a close look at the NA clans, there are eleven clans listed.. 11 clans in the whole NA community. A small number, is it not? I will list the real reasons why and why several clans, not at all are a main reason why new players or old players who never joined a clan are intimidated from creating a clan or staying to continue playing native.

11 clans is pretty ****ing good for this game and community, considering we have had essentially 1 consistent battle server that cannot hold more than 50 players at a time. Only 1 clan I know have has actually stemmed out of seige, and it's probably one of the most successful clans in terms of growing and consistently improving and playing. (whaddup GK!).

It is nice that you're going to give us the "real" reasons though...

1. Rampant elitism throughout the heads of several large clans..I have experienced this myself as a new player and in fact have seen it done last night in a pickup between several large clans.I saw a clanless person kicked from a "pickup" for absolutely no reason. A pickup means anyone can come in and play? Wrong. A pickup apparently means that anyone who the admins on USA event doesn't know or hasnt seen around can be kicked or banned from a server for no reason after waiting in teamspeak two hours for it to begin.

I won't address the pickup, although it seems to me like this pubber was not really listening and being a huge liability and ended up being the butt of a poll ban joke. Sucks, but it has nothing to do with elitism really. True he shouldn't have gotten poll banned, but you can't really expect some of the serious competitive players to be extremely forgiving when someone is really bad AND consistently not listening.

2.Those clans who are not led by elitists allow the elitism to be depicted as what the NA community is. This group of players in clans only consists of 20-30% of the playerbase while they are what it is viewed as..

Alright, lets get to some names and things here, cause of lot of this seems to be refering to players that a lot of people in this thread had no idea existed. "Clans not led by elitists"

Well, here is a list of the clan leaders according to that thread of 11 clans you referred to earlier:
Mad Dawg, Random Peasant, Zero
Rhade
William
GK's is listed as "council" but its contacts are DBD and Vendigr
King John
Doomcraft, Constantine, Kharel
Kush
Courntney, Dag
Rurin
AaronTheBaron (gonna list Pizza and Greenknight too)
Wily, Calamity


Now,
Mad, Peas, and Zero - Balion. I seriously doubt they could be called elistist. They're all extremely good, but none of them will ever tell you that you're bad or that they're better than you.

Rhade - BkS. He's the only one that could be a maybe. He will tell you that he is better than you, and he is certainly extremely good, but he usually gets provoked from what I've seen. He won't just find random pubbers and try to aggravate them by telling them how much better he is. In fact, he usually only interacts with people he knows from clans or anyone who specifically calls him out. He is also not extremely active, so I don't think it's fair to say that he has influence on your average pubber.

William - DoF. I've only interacted with him on the forum, but he's been nothing but gentleman-like on here. He's running and tournament, and I've scrimed against DoF a few times. From what I've seen, the whole clan seems to be in it for the fun. Zero elitism at all.

DBD and Vendigr - GK. First off, GK is probably the most accepting/looking for new players clan in the NA atm. Since they are based on seige, they have a larger playerbase to draw from than battle clans, and from my knowledge (which is fairly decent), they have NEVER turned down a player based on skill. In fact, they have sections of the clan specifically for people who don't really care about skill, but just want to have fun. Vendigr and DBD are both good, and neither of them will throw it in your face. DBD's been known to respond to challenges, but that's not elitism.

King John - KoA. I'm sorry, but he doesn't even talk like ever. At least not to anyone outside of KoA from what I know. He's an amazing archer, but there's no way he could act elitist, as he literally barely talks other than stupid text smileys to his friends in chat.

Doomcraft, Constantine, Kharel - POM. Well, POM isn't active, and neither are these three players, so who gives a ****? Not relevant.

Kush - SF. Also an amazing player, and he will gladly throw that in your face, but he's always willing to work with new players on their skills. He's been a part of the inception of a few clans over the years, and all of them to my memory, have actually been centered around the idea of taking new players and training them up.

Courtney, Dag - Rebels. Only interacted with Courtney, and only through the forum, but he's literally always nice on the forum, so I have serious doubts in calling him elitist.

Rurin - TMW. Rurin is probably one of the most unknown superstars in the community, in my opinion. He's quite a skilled player, and he's fairly soft-spoken outside of TMW. He just doesn't really talk to people, so again, he cannot and does not act elitist. Even if he did talk to people, and when he talks in TMW, he's always trying to have fun.

AaronTheBaron - Wappaw. Does he play this game anymore? Anyway Pizza has always been the face of wappaw for me, and he's one of those players who just loves to get involved with anyone in any way with this game. Never really acts elitist toward new players, he's more likely to try and recruit them. Greenknight is ****ing awesome at the game, but I've never heard him tell anyone their bad. I've never really heard him interact with people he didn't really know anyway.

Wily, Calamity - wK. Both excellent, and both just nice people. I don't know how else to put it. I literally never seem them act elitist, and they put up with a lot of **** because their clan is based on the West Coast, which is a problem in a lot of scheduling thingies.



So, I don't see any clans run by elitists. The closest you get is BkS, which is barely active and does not affect the average pubber.

Also, I'm wondering where you got the 20-30% number? Did you make it up, or did you count the number of players who actively play warband, count the number of them who are in a clan, continue counting for at least a few months to ensure accuracy, and then compare the two groups?

When is the last time anyone who has not played native for years created a clan or had anything to do with any kind of event in native?

When was the last time anyone who has not played starcraft for years created a clan or had anything to do with starcraft?
When was the last time anyone who has not gardened for years started a garden or had anything to do with gardening?

If someone has not played Native for several years, I think it's safe to say that they're not part of the community and that the game is not a priority in any way for them. So why on earth would they want to start a clan or participate in an event? It makes no sense. Its like asking "When was the last time a person who HATES skiing went skiing?" Well, he hates skiing, so of course he doesn't ski. Like wtf? Please explain the thought process here.

3.Alienation of anyone else from entering the native warband scene by childish notions of several community members that they are better than everyone else because they have played for longer and that that it gives them the right to act like pompous uptight douchebags.. Is this a large online high school, or what?The attitude of these people keep the warband community shrinking instead of growing.

Well, I don't know if childish notions is the right phrase. Generally if you've been doing something longer, you're better at it. BUT, I literally have not heard that kind of argument made by anyone for 2 years. Similarly, I don't see peole acting like pompous uptight douchebags. Especially at pubbers who they don't know. Maybe to their clanmates sure, but not to random people. Is this a large online high school? Well I'm sure a lot of the players are high school age. And I know many players who are much older than that. And none of them actually think that they are better than anyone because they've played longer. And if they do think that, they don't say it.

4. When is the last time any NA clan has done any open recruiting? Clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skilled because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to  no skill players.

Orion said this pretty well, about how clans don't go around advertising and trying to get new players, and the general attitude is that if someone is interested, they will come to us. I would like to add that of those 11 clans, BkS has a skill requirement. Thats the only one. Every other clan has a way for you to join with absolutely zero skill. And like I said, BkS is not the most active.

Also, what the **** does "clans are viewed as those players who are skilled and require skill to be a prerequisite for being a clan, but skill comes with but they refuse to accept anyone who is not skill because they havent played long when clans are supposed to be a way to bring skill to no skill players" mean? Like it's pretty terrible english. I'm not saying you have to have perfect english, and I know it's very possible that english is not your first language, but that really takes a bit of deciphering to figure out. If you want your posts and ideas to be taken seriously in the NA community, start writing proper sentences.




New post:

In response to leth, who I think is an amazing player, hilarious guy, and an old friend:
The GAME can be brutal for a new player. I don't think the community is brutal.

 

[McBeverage]

you forgot to mention the unofficial return of the hoboknights x, water you doin

 

[Kherven]

you forgot to mention the unofficial return of the hoboknights x, water you doin

No one even sent me an unofficial memo

 

[RaVeN]

Players in the NA community are very nice and friendly.