The role of throwing weapons and skirmishers (suggestion)

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CaNpoG

Recruit
(I will be mostly focusing on this from a captain mode perspective, but this could be also apply for skirmish and other modes aswell)

Throwing weapons have never felt quite right. The skirmisher class (not only aserai skirmisher, but the similar troops like recruit and wildling) feels like a regular infantry class with worse armor and weapons. I think it's mainly because their whole point is supposed to be using throwing weapons to damage enemies (and maybe be mediocre at best in melee). The problem here comes from the ineffectiveness of throwing weapons. They do literally no damage except for maybe pilas and throwing spears.

Why would someone ever pick a skirmisher class (especially in Captain mode) over light or heavy infantry? Those classes sometimes even get throwing weapons too, and are way better at melee! I feel like the skirmisher class is built on these low damage pokey sticks that are supposed to be for regular infantry to annoy enemies, but it's all skirmishers have.

The way I would go about things is to have skirmisher be fast, with very low to now armor and low-tier 1-handed weapons like shortswords, BUT they should get more powerful throwing weapons which actually kill.
I would have them be this very short ranged high firepower flanking class with pretty low ammo (maybe about 6 javelins) opposed to archers being long ranged, having high amounts of ammo and wearing the enemy down and harrassing them.

Maybe give throwing weapons a *bonus against shields* so the volleys of throwing weapons could also break some shields in shield walls to make the enemy more vulnerable (historically accurate)

The new playstyle for the skirmisher would be something like this:
You run towards the enemy's advancing infantry, you stop pretty close to them and just sling a few volleys of spears into their faces which would break some shields and kill some of them. After that they would be more vulnerable to allied archers. Alternatively you could use your fast movement speed to run around the bigger fights or to good places to ambush enemies and flank them. Of course the massively increased damage of the throwing weapons would be deadly if the enemy caught themselves flanked by enemy skirmishers.

The regular infantry classes who have throwing weapons like javelins would be given some weaker option (which would be about the same as now) maybe called "darts" like the ones we had in Warband. A few exceptions could be made with for example the legionary could still have the pila (but only one unlike the skirmishers) to get one good punch into the enemy infantry before the melee engagement. This would add much more flavor.

So pretty much to cap the new skirmisher class up:

Pros:
+ Very high "bursty" ranged damage
+ Anti heavy infantry (bonus against shields)
+ Fast movement speed

Cons:
- Low range
- Low ammo compared to archers and crossbowmen
- Very low armor
- Low-tier melee weapons like shortswords
- Very vulnerable to cav, especially if caught unable to throw spears into the charge
- Vulnerable to archers due to being far outranged and having low armor and very small shields or no shields
 

Henders

Recruit
I absolutely agree with you. I tried to play skirm seriously for some time but the only way I found to play it is wait for units to charge my allies heavy units, then throw at their back. And it was not as effective as charging directly.

The Idea to deal heavy dammages on shield is nice because that way the "strong shield" perk will be more usefull.
Bows deals around 20-30HP, if throwing weapons can deal 40-50HP but you only have 3, it can be very intressting.

I think that the only thing to do is to up throwing weapons dammages and movement speed and we are good.
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
(skirmish perspective)
Warband did throwing weapons right. theyre somewhat accurate and ready somewhat quickly, so you dont stand there like an idiot for a second before being able to throw, and when you do throw the targets definitly moved, so you'll have to move your mouse which would decrease your accuracy. I dont want to return to the skirmisher hell we had not long ago though.
 

Zarthas

Knight
Yeah, this is the biggest disconnect between Skirmish players and Captain players.

To Captain players, skirmishers were barely functional over the summer, but it was basically throwing the game if you were not S-tier skirmish captain.
Apparently over in Skirmish-land, there was some rage about throwing axes/spears in particular being too powerful and ambush/cheap weapons.

We didn't see any of this in Captain-land. Throwing axes were a great perk option, sacrificing spears or improved armor for a chance at fending off shock troops charges, or dealing with annoying solo cav players. Javelins were of middling effectiveness, but were fun to use and gave you the option to at least hold position and harass enemies.

Captain got absolutely **** on with the last few updates that were very clearly geared towards making Skirmish play a more grokkable experience, but the changes absolutely destroyed the playability of maybe 2/3's of perk combinations in Captain mode.

The devs have said a few times they are diverging the Captain and Skirmish perk selections entirely, which is absolutely the right answer.

I really hope we get throwing weapons back in abundance, and we stop the silliness with foam-tipped javelins and jelly throwing axes.

Charging up on a unit of Varyags only to see them pull out throwing axes was a "OH F***" moment before, as it stands now it is not even worth changing your current course of action, if you take 8-12 damage of throwing axes, so be it.
 

Firunien

Grandmaster Knight
From my skirmish perspective skirmishers should be replaced by medium infantry or just deleted all together. Skirmishing is not fun for anyone involved and takes away too much from melee. I can understand their worth for captains though.
 
[POLL] SHIELD + STUCKED PROJECTILE = ENCUMBRANCE

The game need more mechanics.
the lack of mechanics doesn't provide us with the leverage to balance the game.
Under the comment you can see the list of suggestions that I have proposed and they are valid for both singleplayer and multiplayer.
I suggest new mechanics and I don't just change numbers or perks, as I believe this game should be not a parametric RPG but an action RPG with many mechanics.
 

CaNpoG

Recruit
(skirmish perspective)
Warband did throwing weapons right. theyre somewhat accurate and ready somewhat quickly, so you dont stand there like an idiot for a second before being able to throw, and when you do throw the targets definitly moved, so you'll have to move your mouse which would decrease your accuracy. I dont want to return to the skirmisher hell we had not long ago though.
The main difference here when we're looking at Bannerlord vs Warband is that in Warband we didn't have this skirmisher type of troop. The javelins and other throwing weapons were always supposed to be those weak sidearm annoyance weapons for main infantry to use, and that's what they were.
I absolutely agree with you. I tried to play skirm seriously for some time but the only way I found to play it is wait for units to charge my allies heavy units, then throw at their back. And it was not as effective as charging directly.

The Idea to deal heavy dammages on shield is nice because that way the "strong shield" perk will be more usefull.
Bows deals around 20-30HP, if throwing weapons can deal 40-50HP but you only have 3, it can be very intressting.

I think that the only thing to do is to up throwing weapons dammages and movement speed and we are good.
To be honest, I'd have throwing weapons deal way more damage than just 40-50dmg. I've noticed that comparing them to the plain damage stats of the bows is quite misleading. I was wondering why a 40dmg bow does about as much damage as it says, but then the 40dmg javelins deal around 20 maybe. It probably has a lot to do with the projectile velocity calculations. As we all know, Bannerlord calculates relative weapon and projectile speeds against the targets they're used on. I believe this makes the javelins hit way less hard than bows of the same damage caliber.

I'd have the javelins deal about 100-120p damage each to
1. Compensate for them flying much slower than arrows as described above.
2. To actually give them a reason to exist in the first place as a short range harrassing weapon with a strong punch.

Additionally, ramp up the pila/throwing spear damages.

From my skirmish perspective skirmishers should be replaced by medium infantry or just deleted all together. Skirmishing is not fun for anyone involved and takes away too much from melee. I can understand their worth for captains though.
...To Captain players, skirmishers were barely functional over the summer, but it was basically throwing the game if you were not S-tier skirmish captain.
Apparently over in Skirmish-land, there was some rage about throwing axes/spears in particular being too powerful and ambush/cheap weapons...
Honestly I believe the revamped skirmishers would be much more enjoyable to play as/against. Now it's just pretty much peasants who throw blunt sticks at enemies. Now it's just a class trying to be too much at a time. Keep peasant infantry as peasant infantry and skirmishers as skirmishers. I would be ok with ramping up the costs for using the skirmishers if they actually were more than peasants throwing blunt sticks.
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Considering the proficiency for throwing is equal across each class, I'd argue we dont really have a skirmisher class in Bannerlord aswell. In fact most profiencies are equal to eachother.
 

CaNpoG

Recruit
Considering the proficiency for throwing is equal across each class, I'd argue we dont really have a skirmisher class in Bannerlord aswell. In fact most profiencies are equal to eachother.
Checked game files, and it seems that every class in fact does have the same throwing skill (and mostly every other skill too except riding for cavalry and bow/xbow for archers/xbowmen). Very odd considering that they:
1. Have a class(archetype) that's clearly intended to revolve around throwing weapons.
2. There is no "power throw" skill like there was in Warband, but only "weapon profiency" which impacts both damage AND accuracy. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

They have the skirmisher class so they imo should make do something useful. Pretty much the same as having heavy infantry with only 1-handers and no shields. Yes they can fight but they can't really fulfill their role as arrow catchers and "tanks" if they don't have shields.

So what's the point in having this skirmisher class who are supposed to throw javelins at enemies when the javelins really don't do anything?
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
In my opinion, changing the proficiency of classes and making it public would be a good way of balancing, especially since I'm guessing theyve played around with the proficiencies without including it in the patch notes etc. Non cavalry and non archers now have actual drawbacks when using a horse or bow, and the proficiency values were never changed.
 
I actually like new skirmisher role (medium inf with default shield/ability to chose a biger one, short ranged 1h spear and lack of 1h weapons choise)
However idea of anti shield javelins looks lit, especially on horse skirmishers, it makes no sense when you throw a hugeass 300dmg ash on a full speed into a light shield and it doesnt even breaks a half of its armor
 
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