The Refugee Kafuffle

[Duh]

the notion that culture is largely irrelevant to integration?

Sigh. I never said that it was irrelevant to integration.

Well. You entered into a discussion that was in response to

The entire discussion about culture is pointless because culture really doesn't have that big of an impact, if any. People from all around the globe go to a local (super)market to buy everyday commodities, go to work by car/bike/train etc., spend time with family, have friends and so on.  It is a preposterous idea that there is some form of cultural rift that makes people unable to adapt to life in Europe.

And yes, there are naturally more things to culture, but a lot of them don't matter in the slightest when it comes to integration. The only essentials to life in Europe are working, using money to buy everyday commodities, getting a place to live, dealing with taxes and so on. This is the same for almost every country in the world, regardless of culture.
[...]
Please note that I do not imply planned marriages or antisemitism are in any way acceptable or should even be remotely tolerated. What I am arguing for is that using such aspects, attributing them to culture and claiming someone is not integrated if they adhere to those values derails the refugee debate and is nothing more than xenophobia in disguise.

and noted yourself

Cultural differences are a part of those aspects, but it is not remotely the most important part nor is it some insurmountable barrier that divides groups of people like a chasm. It's more harmful to buy into that notion and perpetuate this myth of "our cultural differences are just too big to allow integration" than to deconstruct it and call attention to other, much more important factors in integration policy (which is the opposite of harmful - it's constructive).

Largely irrelevant, yes.

It's perfectly alright with me if that is not actually your position... but both context and content so far suggested that it was, which is why I responded and inquired as I did.

Now I'll ask again: what are you actually arguing for here?

Originally, I argued against Watly's notion that culture (largely) doesn't matter, that patriarchic behavior, antisemitism or other "negative" traits cannot be part of culture and that any opinion to the contrary would be xenophobic.

What's your position on immigration?

That it is a long term investment that will only pay off if state and society are willing and able to spend significant/sufficient resources on it. And before anyone gets upset - The "pay off" is relevant to everyone. Migrants, Natives and State can and will benefit or suffer together. (Exploitation is a special case but still shouldn't yield a better result than proper integration.) I also believe that it is important to consider societal quirks in the host country as ignorance will not prevent rejection. In other words, while it may be very difficult to accurately quantify absolute limits on immigration, it seems prudent and responsible to consider the potential connection between the size/scope of immigration and public opinion. There is no point to "open all borders to anyone and everyone", if that will cause the greatest deportation operation since Nazi Germany in 5 years time.

As noted before my take on culture is that it is a key factor in the immegration process, because it affects fundamental happiness and crucial abilities such as social interaction. If you are feeling isolated and alienated in a foreign culture and have little to no way or knowledge to deal with it that will affect your quality of life and emotional state. (Which in turn affect a host of other things such as your ability to learn or work effectively.) If you are unable to respect cultural conventions in social interactions that will increase your chances of rejection both in private relationships as well as matters of education or work (and no preaching of tolerance to the host population will change that). Similarly, if you cannot deal with foreign customs and they offend you, you may reject much of what the host offers you. Thus, while I agree that education, housing and work are key to integration (though if they are achieved by yourself rather than government provisions, I would consider them results), culture could be considered a precondition or at least a factor that significantly affects the ability of a migrant to achieve other aspects.

I base this partially on my own experiences preparing students for exchange years as well as discussions I have had with expat teachers and people working with migrants (There are a lot in islamic science mostly teaching german. Classic examples of problems are issues with accepting female teachers or issues with going to school at all if not rewarded/punished beyond passing/failing class). And while I don't study migration or integration, I do feel that much academic literature in polisci, terrorism studies and social movement theory suggests that culture is pretty important to behavior.

 

[Vissy]

Alright. I'm coming from a more minority-centric viewpoint, where concepts like the contact hypothesis, group identity, intergroup relations are important. What I'm trying to say about culture and integration is that you're limiting yourself greatly by focusing your take of immigration through culture alone, especially as it's commonly understood. The problems related to immigration are structural as well as geopolitical and cultural, intergroup relations don't exist in some kind of a vacuum. For example poor host country social services (and poor social services in the immigrant's country of origin), the experiences of migrants related to them, diasporic populations (political conflicts from countries of origin carry over), and so on.

Conflicts between groups shouldn't just be interpreted to be solely attributed to ethnicity or religion. How relations begin to take shape between groups is affected by many different factors related to social identity, such as common shared identity, cultural distance, social hierarchy, direct and indirect contact, and perceived equality. Social identity is an incredibly relevant concept to integration policy, but it's being ignored. Ethnicity or religion (which are more commonly understood as part of "culture" in commonspeak) may (and often will) change over time, which is why I find it problematic that so much weight is being put on "culture" here. First of all, it's incredibly broad and non-specific. Immigrant communities are often international, they are a diaspora, and these international contacts influence and shape their ethnicity and religious affiliations, and over time they may even change them.

I mentioned social identity earlier - well, here's something to shed some more light on that. See, for example, this: "We Are in This Together": Common Group Identity Predicts Majority Members' Active Acculturation Efforts to Integrate Immigrants. This is not to say that social factors are suddenly the most important - integration policies to this day, which are largely based on multiculturalism, have always included economical, political, social and cultural dimensions. Incidentally, though this is not so much aimed at you specifically, Duh, I think a few regulars in this thread could find this next piece thought-provoking reading: The rise and fall of multiculturalism? New debates on inclusion and accommodation in diverse societies

Also see the contact hypothesis. For a minority-minority relations perspective on that, for example. Why is that important? Because majority-minority relations often overshadow minority-minority relations in terms of research time allocated (and volume of studies published); the latter has only lately gotten more research attention in sociology, despite it being quite relevant to integration and an important subject to study in its own right.

 

[kurczak]

No, I'm not - you came up with that all on your own. You're the one here claiming that your affluent circumstances have no impact on your own integration. Not having to rely on certain social services, for example, has no impact? How about the vast host of negative corollary effects that comes with being a poor immigrant? You admit to great privilege and then don't do anything to counteract that. What you've said makes you seem very detached and blinkered.

How about playing the ball instead of the player? Or is that a middle class privilege too?

Being poor has consequences. But not for what I'm talking about. I don't blame them for coming here poor or using offered social services. But if the country provides them not only with general liberties, but also with money, shouldn't that make them all the more appreciative of their new situation?

 

[Vissy]

No, I'm not - you came up with that all on your own. You're the one here claiming that your affluent circumstances have no impact on your own integration. Not having to rely on certain social services, for example, has no impact? How about the vast host of negative corollary effects that comes with being a poor immigrant? You admit to great privilege and then don't do anything to counteract that. What you've said makes you seem very detached and blinkered.

How about playing the ball instead of the player? Or is that a middle class privilege too?

Being poor has consequences. But not for what I'm talking about. I don't blame them for coming here poor or using offered social services. But if the country provides them not only with general liberties, but also with money, shouldn't that make them all the more appreciative of their new situation?

So your position is that immigrants are just ungrateful. Getting better and better.

On what basis are you claiming this? Do you know what goes on in someone else's brain?

 

[kurczak]

No, I don't think all migrants are ungrateful. I, for one, am now when I've moved to America. I was when I lived in Britain. My parents who are both "only" half-Czech are too. My Muslim uncle also is, coming to Europe literally saved his life from Suharto's death squads. So is my husband's Japanese half of family and my sister who married into France. How much multiculturalism and migration do you have in your life?

I didn't say that we need to seal shut borders and never ever let anyone in. But yes there is a too large a subset of migrants in both Europe and America who are being entitled ****s about it and it's become a problem.

 

[Vissy]

No, I don't think all migrants are ungrateful. I, for one, am now when I've moved to America. I was when I lived in Britain. My parents who are both "only" half-Czech are too. My Muslim uncle also is, coming to Europe literally saved his life from Suharto's death squads. So is my husband's Japanese half of family and my sister who married into France. How much multiculturalism and migration do you have in your life?

Oh wow, a rich person is happy in America. I'm so surprised.

It's really funny how you worded that sequence like some kind of a street cred contest. Are you deliberately trying to mount the "I have black friends" defense here or something?

I didn't say that we need to seal shut borders and never ever let anyone in. But yes there is a too large a subset of migrants in both Europe and America who are being entitled ****s about it and it's become a problem.

No, there isn't. You're literally pulling this from your ass. The only one here acting like an entitled **** is you.

 

[BenKenobi]

I feel like it is time to requote this little gem 

So, there is this government-funded program for relocation of Iraqi Christians into the Czech Republic. Their tickets and travel fees are paid for and they are given accomodation and an aid in the asylum procedure. After two weeks or so, a portion of this group has decided that the country is not to their liking and decided to take back their asylum claims and buy tickets to Essen, Germany; because, hey Germany! The Germans stopped the bus, secured the refugees and handed them back to the Czech side. As they cancelled their asylum claims, they will most likely be deported back to Iraq. Ministry of Interior stopped the relocation program.

gg wp 

I have read an interview with one of the guys who is administering that project (it is of a Christian charity kind-of project; the government just funds it), and he claims (although he explicitly states that he has no proof and it is only his conviction) that the group in question was not trying to get to Germany in the first place, but that it was the only option left for them. Basically, they did not like the conditions that the charity was providing and felt that threatening the state with withdrawing their asylum requests will give them some leverage they would be able to use to negotiate for better conditions. Because bazaar of Baghdaad or whatever. They supposedly also tried to act tough by outright refusing to speak with the people from the charity, claiming they will only speak to the governmental officials. However, as with every bureacracy in Europe, the Ministry of Interior simply took their withdrawal requests and approved them without further delay and with no questions; at which point these refugees were screwed. And it serves them right imho; I mean, it is one thing to want better things for yourself, but destroying a chance of other people getting help just because you want better is incredibly selfish.

I also want to add that not all of those who arrived tried to pull off such stunt and some are rather satisfied and grateful.

 

[kurczak]

Oh wow, a rich person is happy in America. I'm so surprised.

It's really funny how you worded that sequence like some kind of a street cred contest. Are you deliberately trying to mount the "I have black friends" defense here or something?

I'm not rich in America. I'm definitely not rich in New York. I don't know why you're imagining that I drive around in an ivory interior Bentley telling people to stop being poor. I'm sorry I'm not starving to death after 25 years in workforce and have opinions on things.

I didn't say that we need to seal shut borders and never ever let anyone in. But yes there is a too large a subset of migrants in both Europe and America who are being entitled ****s about it and it's become a problem.

No, there isn't. You're literally pulling this from your ass. The only one here acting like an entitled **** is you.

Yeah, you're kinda starting to piss me off. First, you make it personal and start babbling that I couldn't possibly have any idea what being on the receiving end of life is like, even though you obviously have no idea what my life is or has been. I know all about what it's like to grow up poor, what it's like to be in debt and broke as ****, I know what it's like to move to another country with nothing but 100 pounds and a piece of paper with an address, I know what it's like to be a visible minority and then you pull this "haha you're doing the I have black friends schtick" so why don't you go ahead and shove your champagne socialist, privilege rhetoric up your pale mongoloid ass.

 

[Vissy]

I'm not rich in America. I'm definitely not rich in New York. I don't know why you're imagining that I drive around in an ivory interior Bentley telling people to stop being poor. I'm sorry I'm not starving to death after 25 years in workforce and have opinions on things.

I touched a nerve, huh? Yeah, no. You are just driving around telling people to stop being poor. That is literally your whole contribution to this thread so far, except replace "the poor" with "immigrants", nevermind that you're still just coming up with this **** about them on the spot. I don't care about your work life. I care about what you're saying right now, right here. But hey, if you want to take out your bitterness and bottled resentment on some vulnerable people and that makes you feel joy, go for it! I'm sure you can fix your problems by blaming them on the immigrants being lazy or whatever.

Yeah, you're kinda starting to piss me off. First, you make it personal and start babbling that I couldn't possibly have any idea what being on the receiving end of life is like, even though you obviously have no idea what my life is or has been. I know all about what it's like to grow up poor, what it's like to be in debt and broke as ****, I know what it's like to move to another country with nothing but 100 pounds and a piece of paper with an address, I know what it's like to be a visible minority and then you pull this "haha you're doing the I have black friends schtick" so why don't you go ahead and shove your champagne socialist, privilege rhetoric up your pale mongoloid ass.

Just going off of what you've been saying about yourself so far. "move to another country with nothing but 100 pounds and a piece of paper", haha. Nevermind that a dollar was worth so much more 25 years ago, nevermind that you're acting like just another entitled boomer, that's just funny on its own. Should I start making **** up to make myself seem more noble now? Oh, wait, I don't have to because I'm not trying to use whatever abritrary status I can conjure for myself to hide from all of the dumb **** I've said.

 

[pentagathus]

No, you're just projecting an arbitrary status on her to avoid admitting you're posting dumb ****.

 

[Cpt. Nemo]

Well, I see a lot of flaming going on in this thread. Personal attacks are not a good way to argue, but they are a fantastic way to get muted.

 

[kurczak]

I touched a nerve, huh? Yeah, no. You are just driving around telling people to stop being poor. That is literally your whole contribution to this thread so far, except replace "the poor" with "immigrants", nevermind that you're still just coming up with this **** about them on the spot. I don't care about your work life. I care about what you're saying right now, right here. But hey, if you want to take out your bitterness and bottled resentment on some vulnerable people and that makes you feel joy, go for it! I'm sure you can fix your problems by blaming them on the immigrants being lazy or whatever.

Yeah you did, but the one responsible for contempt for hypocrisy and poverty of the spirit. I didn't roll into the thread saying "oh look what I've been through and what kind of family I have, therefore I am right". Let me spoon-feed it to you one more time: you were making **** up about me and my background, you were portraying me as some divorced-from-reality trust fund kid, you made it personal by saying my opinion is irrelevant, because I'm "rich", you were not interested in discussing the actual matter, you were automatically dismissing what I was saying based on who I allegedly was. Only then I brought it up. I don't give a forum-rules-abiding word what you think about my life and if I ever sink so low that I would fish for sympathy, your sorry forum-rules-abiding word for a body part would be the last one I would want it from. But if you make it about "street cred", to use your words to determine who is "allowed" to comment on the subject, then sure, let's.

Just going off of what you've been saying about yourself so far. "move to another country with nothing but 100 pounds and a piece of paper", haha. Nevermind that a dollar was worth so much more 25 years ago, nevermind that you're acting like just another entitled boomer, that's just funny on its own. Should I start making **** up to make myself seem more noble now? Oh, wait, I don't have to because I'm not trying to use whatever abritrary status I can conjure for myself to hide from all of the dumb **** I've said.

Is there no bottom to your inability to grasp what people say? What does dollar value have to do with anything? And no, it wasn't worth "so much more" 25 years ago. 100 pounds was like 180 dollars back then, while now it's 140. Big whoop. I was talking about when I came to Britain as an au-pair. America or the dollar had nothing to do with it.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

(sidenote: apparently £100 25 years ago is roughly worth ca. £197 ish nowadays. aka kurczak is correct in that the inflation is not really relevant (besides the fact that as has been mentioned USD are also irrelevant, but as a bonus, 100 USD back then is ca 165 USD now, so triple irrelevant). that is all)

 

[Lord Brutus]

A large percentage of the world's population were refugees at some point in their past.  My first American ancestor had to lie about being single to be brought to the New World.

 

[Bromden]

My ancestors created a lot of refugees when they arrived to Europe.

 

[Beny]

I came to Britain as an au-pair.

You were an au-pair?? We had one of those once. You've just reignited a long lost love I didn't know I had.

 

[Anthropoid]

A large percentage of the world's population were refugees at some point in their past.  My first American ancestor had to lie about being single to be brought to the New World.

I used to be a refugee. Then I took an arrow to the knee.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

my grandparents were internal refugees running away from the soviets. common story.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

i'm planning to be a refugee in 5 years or so

 

[Temuzu]

I used to be a refugee. Then I took an arrow to the knee.

This is an excellent post, would upvote if I could.