The real fix for Sturgia

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Midnitewolf

Sergeant
No, the reason why battania is doing well is because they're the 2nd largest calvary nation and their towns are very close to each other. Mounted units get a bonus in auto resolve (ai fights). Noble units barely matters for ai given their rarity. Sturgia is weak because they boarder the two best calvary nation while having inefficient pathing between their own fiefs. I'm all for having huscarl units but if they replace a mounted unit, it will weaken Sturgia further.
I think I have to agree on this. Also you have to consider that cavalry heavy armies move faster on the campaign map. This means that Sturgia is often facing armies that move quite a bit faster then they do. That is a huge advantage since often even a smaller, non-cavalry based army, can be easily overtaken by a large cavalry based one. Also it is easier for cavalry based armies to outrun the opponent when they can't win the fight. All in all this means that cavalry based factions tend to find themselves at the advantage for most of their fights.

Also your right about how much geography makes a difference. Sturgia is literally hell to try to move through and it takes a long, long time for lords to move from one end to another. Also they have to mostly move down a narrow valley between to sets of long mountain chains making it easy to intercept lords.

Battania however is super tightly clustered so all the lords tend to be bunched in one place and can easily form armies and or react to defend towns and castles against sieges.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
well some how in my current campaign, Battania got beaten down pretty bad by Valandia, most city got captured, only one town left..... so I guess depends.

Stragia is the weakest, bec it also have the worst economy, most town are only 2000+ prosperity. only 2 above 3000+
Vlandia has quite a bit of Cavalry themselves though. For auto calc Vlandia vs Battania is probably pretty even.
 

cadadr

Recruit
Replacing cavalry with infantry is nothing but an outright nerf to Sturgia. But you are onto something with how uninteresting Druzhinnik Champs are.

They actually have a bit more armour than Banner Knights, can couch lances and tend to have better one handed skill, but that's not enough imo.

For them to be more unique, they ought to just be two hander cavalry. Big axe or war razor- that way they function as less of a charger and more of a flanking mauler with a less threatening charge in exchange for being better in more prolonged fights.
Give them swordstaffs. As a plus, cav with swordstaffs are the ultimate anti-Khuzait-horsearcher weapons, but guess who gets those weapons? Khuzaits.

I've Just tried an approximation. Gave Druzhinniks and their champ versions Black Heart axes and Long Glaives, and no other weapons. Made a party of 65 of their champs. They are about as strong as Battanian Fians and their champs, as their # of kills are about the same. IDK if giving them throwing weapons would make them too broken, but this could make them a desirable unique troops rather than funny cataphracts with unfitting huge shields.
 

Kyias

Recruit
I messed with the 300 trade skill, and gave them 1 castle and 1 town in the north east empire, I found they contested Khuzaits far more often and took Baltakhand and Makeb.

they already have the strength, the issue is they get in this endless war with Vlandia over 1 castle and it ties up all their forces. When they had more land east, they held their own against those factions because their armies were there.

they don’t need a rework, they need their boundaries slightly shifted to make better AI decisions.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
As a plus, cav with swordstaffs are the ultimate anti-Khuzait-horsearcher weapons, but guess who gets those weapons? Khuzaits.
Every faction has a two-handed swinging polearm. Sturgia originally had Shock Troops with warrazors that would absolute wreck in melee, but they weren't mounted and horse archers were still doing a good job of maintaining their distance back then.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
I messed with the 300 trade skill, and gave them 1 castle and 1 town in the north east empire, I found they contested Khuzaits far more often and took Baltakhand and Makeb.

they already have the strength, the issue is they get in this endless war with Vlandia over 1 castle and it ties up all their forces. When they had more land east, they held their own against those factions because their armies were there.

they don’t need a rework, they need their boundaries slightly shifted to make better AI decisions.
Well that goes back the geography issue that has been mentioned. Seems your solution makes it easier for them to get troops over to defend themselves on the Khuzait front. If they removed the choke points so that it was easier for Sturgian troops to get form one side of their territory to the other, they might do better all around.
 

cadadr

Recruit
Every faction has a two-handed swinging polearm. Sturgia originally had Shock Troops with warrazors that would absolute wreck in melee, but they weren't mounted and horse archers were still doing a good job of maintaining their distance back then.
Yeah but they are exremely effective on horseback because now they can use polearm attacks as they chase, unlike menavliatons and voulgiers that need horse archers etc to come to them or get stuck in a crowd of foot soldiers, and unlike rest of the cavalry line whose most effective trick is couched lance attacks or usual spear attacks that have no use when chasing on horse.
 
Give them swordstaffs. As a plus, cav with swordstaffs are the ultimate anti-Khuzait-horsearcher weapons, but guess who gets those weapons? Khuzaits.

I've Just tried an approximation. Gave Druzhinniks and their champ versions Black Heart axes and Long Glaives, and no other weapons. Made a party of 65 of their champs. They are about as strong as Battanian Fians and their champs, as their # of kills are about the same. IDK if giving them throwing weapons would make them too broken, but this could make them a desirable unique troops rather than funny cataphracts with unfitting huge shields.
Like I said, war razor. Sturgia have sovyna like weapons. Those could be what the Druzhinniks get to stand out.
 

Kyias

Recruit
Well that goes back the geography issue that has been mentioned. Seems your solution makes it easier for them to get troops over to defend themselves on the Khuzait front. If they removed the choke points so that it was easier for Sturgian troops to get form one side of their territory to the other, they might do better all around.
Yeah basically. If they got rid of that one castle next to Caleus, then added a town and castle south of Tyal, it may be enough for them to fight Khuzaits more often. Right now they only have defensive wars there, so they always lose.

When I gave them Amprala and Tepes castle, they actively fought the eastern factions, and Battannia to the west. When Caleus and the other one were out of the equation, they never fought vlandia again (no border)
 

Adov

Regular
The problem with sturgian troop tree does exist, but it's not in the noble line. Like comrades earlier said, noble troops are way too rare too give that much difference - they only shine when the player stockpiles them - and when they do, any noble troop becomes a doomstack, druzhinniks included. AI lords lose all of their petty 5-6 elite guards along with their recruit armies to autocalc and player's advantage in judgement and solo shenanigans.
However. I compared the entire troop trees of Sturgia and Battania in a modded version of custom battle which allows precise troop selection. I compared recruits to volunteers, warriors to clan warriors - and so on. The sturgian troops failed miserably in all the disciplines but two. Heavy axemen performed slightly better than both oathsworn and wildmen, druzhinnik champions quite predictably rolled over fian champions, because cav > archers. Sturgian recruits lost not only to volunteers, they even lost to looters. And that's what I believe matters most - armies are mostly composed of t1-t2 troops, and for Sturgia those are just laughable. Even sturgian peasants beat sturgian recruits.
So even if you play for Sturgia it becomes hard to compesate for other factors (autocalc and terrain disadvantage) with manual field battles - because your troops are just too bad.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Yeah but they are exremely effective on horseback because now they can use polearm attacks as they chase, unlike menavliatons and voulgiers that need horse archers etc to come to them or get stuck in a crowd of foot soldiers, and unlike rest of the cavalry line whose most effective trick is couched lance attacks or usual spear attacks that have no use when chasing on horse.
Menavalitions can be swing by the way. They have just about the same states as a Glaive.
 

soul_jak

Sergeant at Arms
I see another thing that could work. Terrain should have an influence. When defending their home territory, we are talking about snowy north. Non-Sturgian troops should have a speed disadvantage there making them more slow and sluggish while sturgian-born units are not affected (and the Sturgia faction modifier in CG will be useful at last). What, if non-Sturgian will receive a -20% speed debuff (-30% for cav) and a -10% debuff on all weapon skills as long they are fighting in snow?
What if harsh climate will put attrition of troops? Daily small chance of 'X troops have contracted illness' -> injured or smaller chance of 'X troops have frozen to death' with Sturgians exempt from it? Especially when walking by night? ('Set up camp' would be a meaningful option) You could see the same with deserts and the Aserai, only, that there is a higher chance of succumbing to desert climate at day. We can exempt caravans as well as bandit parties.
Give sea raider parties an ambush mechanism where they spawn left and right of a party in column formation (150 paces) and pepper them left and right with arrows before retreating into near woods (good chance to flee). After that disperse and reform at hideout. (Raider archer troop type required)
To help Sturgia you might want to make the land itself dangerous to non-Sturgians and if you get a foothold there you might need local troops.
Sea raiders could work in a different manner as well as not attacking Sturgian assets but setting up a camp and sending 30-40 sized parties to raid villages in the near vicinity not under Sturgian control. Since these are bandit attacks, there is no reason for formal war. Raided goods could be placed in hideout. If there was any interaction between bandits and high-roguery lords there could be many other options as well like buying those ill-gotten goods for a discount.
The Druzhinik is a nice unit and they should keep it but they need the huscarl (Edit: then rename the heavy axeman to Huscarl to make it more immersive).

So conclusion:
- add more immersive gameplay for Sturgia
- make it difficult to conquer Sturgia for others without giving Sturgia buffs (only immunity to winter climate debuffs)
Maybe add cold attrition to auto resolve like -5 speed to units -5 accuracy for all archer units or som?
 

Apocal

Master Knight
Maybe add cold attrition to auto resolve like -5 speed to units -5 accuracy for all archer units or som?
Sturgia doesn't do all that badly now and they do get a reduced Snow penalty compared to other factions. Autocalc doesn't care about accuracy and in live battles you wouldn't notice any debuff next to infantry killing guys at the cyclic rate.
 

Kyias

Recruit
Well that goes back the geography issue that has been mentioned. Seems your solution makes it easier for them to get troops over to defend themselves on the Khuzait front. If they removed the choke points so that it was easier for Sturgian troops to get form one side of their territory to the other, they might do better all around.

Pretty much yeah. They have wierd attacking priorities with such a Horizontally challenged geography.

Unlike others, I actually really like their troop trees. The only difference I would like to see is more variance between their Heavy Axemen and Heavy Spearmen infantry. Their mounted skirmishers are mediocre (but useful) and their archers are a filler unit...but these two fill the same role and need some variety.

Their noble troop I feel needs a swordstaff weapon. There really isn't a dedicated poleblade cavalry unit. The Khans guard has one, but it's primarily a horse archer. I think that would be a cool role for the Sturgians for shock cav.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Pretty much yeah. They have wierd attacking priorities with such a Horizontally challenged geography.

Unlike others, I actually really like their troop trees. The only difference I would like to see is more variance between their Heavy Axemen and Heavy Spearmen infantry. Their mounted skirmishers are mediocre (but useful) and their archers are a filler unit...but these two fill the same role and need some variety.

Their noble troop I feel needs a swordstaff weapon. There really isn't a dedicated poleblade cavalry unit. The Khans guard has one, but it's primarily a horse archer. I think that would be a cool role for the Sturgians for shock cav.
I am not a fan of their troops nor the bastardization of a mix between Kievan Rus and Viking. Honestly I don't feel those cultures have anything in common except prehaps having fought each other a time or two. Real Kievan Rus armies around the timeframe used by this game were very archer heavy and have a significant focus on horse archers, specifically heavy horse archers. They got their butts kicked by the Mongols and largely adopted Mongol tactics and unit compositions. If anything made them unique it was the lack of heavy melee cavalry since the the focus upon contact with the Mongol invasions converted that heavy melee cavalry into horse archers.

Actually from what I read, I think it might be safe to say that it isn't exactly true that the Kievan Rus lost their heavy melee cavalry, instead that heavy melee cavalry just became a hybrid of heavy melee cavalry and horse archers. As far as I understand, they used horse archers very differently probably due to the fact they couldn't exactly match Mongol's in this area since Mongol's ate, slept and breathed horse archery from birth. Instead the Rus Horse archers would rush forward and from a standing formation, use their bows to harass enemy formations. Then put up their bows and charge in like normal cavalry.

Anyway, my point is the Sturgian troop tree sucks because of the hybridization of the Viking and Rus cultures leaves them lacking in critical areas. Also I HATE the mismatch of armors and equipment. It probably wouldn't be so bad but my ancestry is from the Slavic regions and it is just painful to see those cultural identities get so corrupted by Viking influence. Hell if I have to be honest, the Vikings, which was an amazing culture in and of itself suffers from having Rus cultures mixed in with it, The whole thing just clashes visually and I hate it. I want my pure Vaegirs back from Warband...well with the addition of the horse archer units which were significant to the cultures they were based upon added.

Hopefully someone will do a really good troop overhaul mod for Sturgia to weed out the impure Viking influence hehe.
 

Kyias

Recruit
I get where you are coming from. I personally would like to see the heavy spearman line converted to a cavalry tree to represent the Vaegirs and rethink the mounted skirmisher into another Vaegir themed troop tree.

Each of the current factions (except empire and Battannia) are supposed to represent the empires we see later in Warband. Specifically Vlandia (Swabia and Rhodok) and Sturgia (One of the families has a name that appears to represent the Founding Vaegir Kingdom.). Vlandia already has Rhodoks covered with their amazing crossbows and Spear lines. It would be nice to see the Vaegir get more representation somewhere. Like you they were my favorite Kingdom.
 

Adov

Regular
Honestly I don't feel those cultures have anything in common except prehaps having fought each other a time or two. Real Kievan Rus armies around the timeframe used by this game were very archer heavy and have a significant focus on horse archers, specifically heavy horse archers. They got their butts kicked by the Mongols and largely adopted Mongol tactics and unit compositions. If anything made them unique it was the lack of heavy melee cavalry since the the focus upon contact with the Mongol invasions converted that heavy melee cavalry into horse archers.

You're quite wrong my friend, in 10-11th century (that is actually before Kievan Rus', it was only forming back then) vikings were being hired by princes of Rus to fight in their armies against their neighbours. The most well-known example is Yaroslav the Wise of Novgorod, who hired a company of scandinavian mercs to help him in a war against his brother Svyatopolk. And that's the kind of interaction vikings likely preferred with the people of Gardarica (that's how they called Rus') - trade and mercenary work rather than raiding and fighting. The cultures of slavs and vikings are also very much intertwined for this period. There's a lot of archeological findings of viking origin in northern Russia, there's also quite a notable finding near Kiev - a fragment of face mask very similar to the one of the iconic GjermundBu goggled helmet.
Bannerlord lore also hints mercenary relationships between Strugia and Nords - Raganvad's bio states him being related by blood to Skolderbrotva.
I guess you kinda right about mongol tactics adoption - but that's gonna come a bit later, mongols started invading Rus' in 13th century and were only repelled in 15th.
Bannerlord timeframe isn't really connected so tightly to the real world one - it is actually a mix of pretty much everything between the Migration Period (7th century) and late 12th century. So in those times Rus' still had more ties with norse culture rather than Mongolian. The Novgorod Principality of late 12th century, for example, was quite notorious for naval raiding rather than cavalry.
What I'm trying to say, the so-called bastardization of slavic and norse culture is not that much of a bastardization really, but actually quite the depiction of a known historical mix of these cultures. The names of early princes of Rus' were also a very similar mix between slavic '-slav's and '-mir's and nordic 'Rurik', 'Askold' and so on. The tale of Oleg the Prophet also has quite some similaries to the Saga of Odd the Arrow.
 
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