The real fix for Sturgia

[McDadden]

I'll try to make this as quick as possible.
Sturgia is still the weakest faction. I think it's mainly because of their weak noble line. This is why battania is doing better now because they have more access to their fian champion. Either way, each faction has a noble line that feels unique and offers something the no other faction can. Vlandia, heavy couch lance cav. Khuzhait, ultimate horse archer. Empire, medieval tanks. Aserai, flexible skirmisher/shock cav. Battania, best archers in the game. Then there's Sturgia: the druzhinik champion is just heavy cav that can't couch their lance and has less armor than both the banner knight or cataphract. It serves no purpose. Furthermore, you have to go through 4 stages of infantry levels before they even get their horse. The unit itself doesn't seem to fit the sturgian culture. There's no reason to try and recruit them when there's way better options.
So what's the fix? I think they need to bring back the nord huscarl. Different name but you get the picture. Ditch the horse and keep them as infantry, but give them the stat boosts like the other nobles lines. Keep the axe and shield along with throwing axes and make them super soldiers. This would give them the truly best infantry in the game which is really how Sturgia is supposed to be.

 

[menuisier100]

No, the reason why battania is doing well is because they're the 2nd largest calvary nation and their towns are very close to each other. Mounted units get a bonus in auto resolve (ai fights). Noble units barely matters for ai given their rarity. Sturgia is weak because they boarder the two best calvary nation while having inefficient pathing between their own fiefs. I'm all for having huscarl units but if they replace a mounted unit, it will weaken Sturgia further.

 

[McDadden]

While I totally disagree about Battania being considered a cavalry nation, I don't want the point to be missed: That the druzhinik champion makes no sense to the Sturgians.
And with all the new villages added, the noble lines have become much more common.

 

[Apocal]

While I totally disagree about Battania being considered a cavalry nation, I don't want the point to be missed: That the druzhinik champion makes no sense to the Sturgians.

It isn't referring to lore. In-game, prior to 1.5.7, Battania had the second highest percentage of cavalry in their party compositions, only behind the Khuzaits. This was why they performed very well.

Sturgia is still the weakest faction. I think it's mainly because of their weak noble line. This is why battania is doing better now because they have more access to their fian champion. Either way, each faction has a noble line that feels unique and offers something the no other faction can. Vlandia, heavy couch lance cav. Khuzhait, ultimate horse archer. Empire, medieval tanks. Aserai, flexible skirmisher/shock cav. Battania, best archers in the game.

The game's autocalc doesn't care about that. In autocalc, the Sturgian druzhnik flatly outperforms fians by 20% merely by being a mounted unit vs. a foot unit. It certainly underperforms the other four noble types at the lower tiers due to being a foot unit but the fian suffers the same in autocalc.

So what's the fix? I think they need to bring back the nord huscarl. Different name but you get the picture. Ditch the horse and keep them as infantry, but give them the stat boosts like the other nobles lines. Keep the axe and shield along with throwing axes and make them super soldiers. This would give them the truly best infantry in the game which is really how Sturgia is supposed to be.

Putting yet another foot unit in the Sturgian roster when they need all the party speed they can possibly get is making the problem worse, not better.

The real fix is getting rid of all those useless forests, which is the real impediment to Sturgian assembly and response times in comparison to other factions, and giving them more cav so the Khuzaits can't casually outrun them even in the dead of winter.

 

[McDadden]

Or perhaps a tweaking to how autocalc works. Perhaps give the cav units a penalty in siege battles or reduce the overall bonus cav units get. Either way while the replies so far make sense, but I still think it misses the point. My main point is the Sturgian Druzhinik Champion is pointless compared to other factions and to other heavy cav, so something needs to be done to make them more attractive for players as well as ai.

Im not entirely convinced that in an auto calc situation you would find heavy cav beating fian champions anyways unless the opposing army was also a noble line. Put say vlandian vanguard or heavy horse archer vs fian champion, and I'm pretty sure the autocalc would give it to the fians. If anyone would have a screenshot to prove otherwise, I would like to see it. I'm merely speculating.

 

[Althix]

Put say vlandian vanguard or heavy horse archer vs fian champion

we are talking about noble-liners right? so it's a banner knight vs fian c and fian c vs. khuzait khan's guard.

and i agree with @Apocal , Sturgia suffer from the speed of their armies.From Sibir to Tyal there are snow and forest penalties at the same time. It takes 5 and half-day for a single party to travel from Tyal to Omor, for the army it is even longer. Basically, when Sturgian army arrives, Urikskala castle, Tyal, Vladiv Castle are already taken and an army of Khuzait is on their march to Sibir or Varnovapol.

the nord huscarl

heavy axeman.

 

[Mikal Manfriedson]

I see another thing that could work. Terrain should have an influence. When defending their home territory, we are talking about snowy north. Non-Sturgian troops should have a speed disadvantage there making them more slow and sluggish while sturgian-born units are not affected (and the Sturgia faction modifier in CG will be useful at last). What, if non-Sturgian will receive a -20% speed debuff (-30% for cav) and a -10% debuff on all weapon skills as long they are fighting in snow?
What if harsh climate will put attrition of troops? Daily small chance of 'X troops have contracted illness' -> injured or smaller chance of 'X troops have frozen to death' with Sturgians exempt from it? Especially when walking by night? ('Set up camp' would be a meaningful option) You could see the same with deserts and the Aserai, only, that there is a higher chance of succumbing to desert climate at day. We can exempt caravans as well as bandit parties.
Give sea raider parties an ambush mechanism where they spawn left and right of a party in column formation (150 paces) and pepper them left and right with arrows before retreating into near woods (good chance to flee). After that disperse and reform at hideout. (Raider archer troop type required)
To help Sturgia you might want to make the land itself dangerous to non-Sturgians and if you get a foothold there you might need local troops.
Sea raiders could work in a different manner as well as not attacking Sturgian assets but setting up a camp and sending 30-40 sized parties to raid villages in the near vicinity not under Sturgian control. Since these are bandit attacks, there is no reason for formal war. Raided goods could be placed in hideout. If there was any interaction between bandits and high-roguery lords there could be many other options as well like buying those ill-gotten goods for a discount.
The Druzhinik is a nice unit and they should keep it but they need the huscarl (Edit: then rename the heavy axeman to Huscarl to make it more immersive).

So conclusion:
- add more immersive gameplay for Sturgia
- make it difficult to conquer Sturgia for others without giving Sturgia buffs (only immunity to winter climate debuffs)

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Replacing cavalry with infantry is nothing but an outright nerf to Sturgia. But you are onto something with how uninteresting Druzhinnik Champs are.

They actually have a bit more armour than Banner Knights, can couch lances and tend to have better one handed skill, but that's not enough imo.

For them to be more unique, they ought to just be two hander cavalry. Big axe or war razor- that way they function as less of a charger and more of a flanking mauler with a less threatening charge in exchange for being better in more prolonged fights.

 

[Apocal]

Im not entirely convinced that in an auto calc situation you would find heavy cav beating fian champions anyways unless the opposing army was also a noble line. Put say vlandian vanguard or heavy horse archer vs fian champion, and I'm pretty sure the autocalc would give it to the fians. If anyone would have a screenshot to prove otherwise, I would like to see it. I'm merely speculating.

This is the entire GetPower used for autocalc to determine troop strength. It only cares about three things:
1. Hero unit?
2. Tier?
3. Mounted?

Either way while the replies so far make sense, but I still think it misses the point. My main point is the Sturgian Druzhinik Champion is pointless compared to other factions and to other heavy cav, so something needs to be done to make them more attractive for players as well as ai.

If that was your point, you picked a very misleading name for this thread.

Anyway, as far as discussion of troop effectiveness for players goes, the Druzh are probably the top unit in the Sturgian roster because they can keep your shieldwall from getting ganked by Khuzaits. They are the best option for counter-charging horse archers and brawling Khuzait Lancers in melee, which is something you'll be doing a lot if you have to fight around Tyal and Urikslava castle. In comparison, nothing Huscarls do would stop a cav-heavy force from turning your shieldwall's flank at will -- even worse if they are horse archers and can pepper your flanks and backs the entire time. Did I mention that archers are better at sieges than infantry? Because they are, so Huscarls can't even claim that mantle.

Replacing Druzh with Huscarls would be hustling in reverse.

 

[McDadden]

@HalfMetalJacket , thanks for the input. I like that idea and would solve the cav problem as well as give their noble line a unique flavor.
@Apocal , I suppose you're right. My intent was to focus on the druzhinik and got off topic during the initial rant. That happens. I think it has opened up the discussion on auto resolve and how it affects snow balling among other issues, so there's plenty for the devs to think about from that.
I must add that using a shield wall is not the counter to horse archers. Resonant did a youtube video on this. You can beat horse archers easily with only infantry by putting them in circle (the proper counter formation). All they have to do is wait out the archers til they run out of arrows and maul them when they come in for melee. Not the point of the conversation, but just thought you should know.
I was hoping that more could agree that their noble line is awkward with the first four tiers as infantry and then swapping to cavalry and not offering anything different from the other lines of heavy cav. I love how the fian champion is different and am merely hoping they can come up with a way to make sturgia more fun to play or recruit, that's all.

 

[Moton]

It isn't referring to lore. In-game, prior to 1.5.7, Battania had the second highest percentage of cavalry in their party compositions, only behind the Khuzaits. This was why they performed very well.


The game's autocalc doesn't care about that. In autocalc, the Sturgian druzhnik flatly outperforms fians by 20% merely by being a mounted unit vs. a foot unit. It certainly underperforms the other four noble types at the lower tiers due to being a foot unit but the fian suffers the same in autocalc.


Putting yet another foot unit in the Sturgian roster when they need all the party speed they can possibly get is making the problem worse, not better.

The real fix is getting rid of all those useless forests, which is the real impediment to Sturgian assembly and response times in comparison to other factions, and giving them more cav so the Khuzaits can't casually outrun them even in the dead of winter.

I think that instead of making the whole game based on cavalry we maybe should discuss another way the autocalc and such works. I mean if we follow this path every faction has to be a cav faction wich is super boring.

 

[Defury]

I think that instead of making the whole game based on cavalry we maybe should discuss another way the autocalc and such works. I mean if we follow this path every faction has to be a cav faction wich is super boring.

Sounds like a good way to improve the game. There are two ideas in my mind, how to tackle the autocalc:

Terrain influence:
Instead giving horses a flat bonus everywhere, give out a terrain base bonus:
- you fight in flat, open terrain? => bonus to cav.
- you fight in hills or defend walls? => bonus to archers
- you fight in thick forrests? => bonus to infantry.
- cant decide which terrain suits? => no one gets a bonus.

Army composition bonus:
Think of a form of "rock-paper-scicors". Like
- Cav beats archers
- archers beats infantry
- infantry beats cav
Can be different, but you get the idea.

Then, when two armies fight, you check the most common soldier type per army.
Army 1 has more infantry than anything else, it is an infantry army. Army 2 has more cav than anything else, it is an cav army. Hence Army 2 gets a bonus in this battle.

Obviously, you can go way more into detail about army compositon than "most common soldier" (especially since i suppose that "mostly archer"-armys are rare?). But you get the idea.

 

[a_ver_est]

Terrain influence:
Instead giving horses a flat bonus everywhere, give out a terrain base bonus:
- you fight in flat, open terrain? => bonus to cav.
- you fight in hills or defend walls? => bonus to archers
- you fight in thick forrests? => bonus to infantry.
- cant decide which terrain suits? => no one gets a bonus.

Something like that is what TW have in mind, but not sure when if ever will be implemented. By now we just have no bonus for cav in sieges.

I will be fine if movement bonus on snow is slighly buff for sturgia, it will help to defend their home lands.

 

[Moton]

Sounds like a good way to improve the game. There are two ideas in my mind, how to tackle the autocalc:

Terrain influence:
Instead giving horses a flat bonus everywhere, give out a terrain base bonus:
- you fight in flat, open terrain? => bonus to cav.
- you fight in hills or defend walls? => bonus to archers
- you fight in thick forrests? => bonus to infantry.
- cant decide which terrain suits? => no one gets a bonus.

Army composition bonus:
Think of a form of "rock-paper-scicors". Like
- Cav beats archers
- archers beats infantry
- infantry beats cav
Can be different, but you get the idea.

Then, when two armies fight, you check the most common soldier type per army.
Army 1 has more infantry than anything else, it is an infantry army. Army 2 has more cav than anything else, it is an cav army. Hence Army 2 gets a bonus in this battle.

Obviously, you can go way more into detail about army compositon than "most common soldier" (especially since i suppose that "mostly archer"-armys are rare?). But you get the idea.

This is exactly what we need. Since every faction seem to be located on the right type of train already for their type of troops. Khuzait and Aserai on plains, Battania on a mountain of sorts and Sturgia in a more wild snowy place with alot of forest.

And with this we could give Sturgia an infantary noble type and just another none noble type of cav that is decent.

 

[Apocal]

I think that instead of making the whole game based on cavalry we maybe should discuss another way the autocalc and such works. I mean if we follow this path every faction has to be a cav faction wich is super boring.

They don't have to be cavalry factions. You just can't afford to have Sturgia the way it is (covered in snow and woods) and deny them cav entirely because the Cavalry bonus is still the source of the biggest differences in party speed.

Then, when two armies fight, you check the most common soldier type per army.
Army 1 has more infantry than anything else, it is an infantry army. Army 2 has more cav than anything else, it is an cav army. Hence Army 2 gets a bonus in this battle.

Obviously, you can go way more into detail about army compositon than "most common soldier" (especially since i suppose that "mostly archer"-armys are rare?). But you get the idea.

Yeah, you probably should use a different method, because by that standard almost every party/army (exceptions being some minor factions) would be considered an infantry army.

 

[caledoni]

A Sturgian noble infantry unit would be ace. Would need to be balanced well though as currently Infantry gets wreaked by pretty much everything.

When I'm playing as Sturgia I pretty much just ignore the Noble line beyond when they convert to cav.

 

[Moton]

They don't have to be cavalry factions. You just can't afford to have Sturgia the way it is (covered in snow and woods) and deny them cav entirely because the Cavalry bonus is still the source of the biggest differences in party speed.

But with the current way the game works the armies with most cav win, so in other words every faction has to have the sameish composition for it to be balanced, unless they redo the current way autocalc works.

I mean you're both faster and win autocalc if you have the most cav units, it's boring.

 

[veronicaaltoids]

No, the reason why battania is doing well is because they're the 2nd largest calvary nation and their towns are very close to each other. Mounted units get a bonus in auto resolve (ai fights). Noble units barely matters for ai given their rarity. Sturgia is weak because they boarder the two best calvary nation while having inefficient pathing between their own fiefs. I'm all for having huscarl units but if they replace a mounted unit, it will weaken Sturgia further.

well some how in my current campaign, Battania got beaten down pretty bad by Valandia, most city got captured, only one town left..... so I guess depends.

Stragia is the weakest, bec it also have the worst economy, most town are only 2000+ prosperity. only 2 above 3000+

 

[veronicaaltoids]

This is the entire GetPower used for autocalc to determine troop strength. It only cares about three things:
1. Hero unit?
2. Tier?
3. Mounted?


If that was your point, you picked a very misleading name for this thread.

Anyway, as far as discussion of troop effectiveness for players goes, the Druzh are probably the top unit in the Sturgian roster because they can keep your shieldwall from getting ganked by Khuzaits. They are the best option for counter-charging horse archers and brawling Khuzait Lancers in melee, which is something you'll be doing a lot if you have to fight around Tyal and Urikslava castle. In comparison, nothing Huscarls do would stop a cav-heavy force from turning your shieldwall's flank at will -- even worse if they are horse archers and can pepper your flanks and backs the entire time. Did I mention that archers are better at sieges than infantry? Because they are, so Huscarls can't even claim that mantle.

Replacing Druzh with Huscarls would be hustling in reverse.

lol is that C# code in Visual Stuido?? lol TW game is based on C# ??? hahah omg

 

[Rurik0726]

I buffed the Sturgian troop tree and also their cities and policies and now they are just like other factions and their infantry's now no.1.