The Problem With Spears and a Potential Short-Term Fix

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LyonExodus

Regular
I have played Bannerlord for well over an year now and one of the things that was untouched since the time I started is the way Thrusting spears work.

Patch 1.8. is no different than any other, spears Ai is still very much struggling for both Cav and Infantry. As we can see in this here video:

The Vlandian Sergeant is just one of the foot units that really struggles with the thrusting spear AI.
But since 1.8. the behaviour of all troops wielding long weapons has been impacted. mainly this can be seen in the 2H shock troopers. as any of their weapon from 2H axes to the longest swingable polearms will be more likely to deliver "bad" strikes.

A prime example can be seen while testing the Veteran Falxman, a comically bad unit in patch 1.8.

Now i have messed around with some mods that impacted spears in one way or another, the only way we seemed to get them to work well was by increasing their DMG and most importantly THRUST SPEED.

But i wouldn't recommend this as a short term fix, just an interesting look at how changing some values interacts with the weapon.

There is one "spear" that is very effective against Cavalry. While not being a death sentence when used in melee Vs other infantry. That's the Legionary's Pilum.
After further testings on more standard spears the Khuzait Darkhan and the Sturgian Spearman ones seem like the only ones that work on pair with the Pilum.

The Pilum is technically a throwing weapon but for some reason it can't be thrown by the unit. this transforms the weapon into a spear, and since it's much shorter than any other spear in the game the Legionary tracks the enemy at the right time and strikes with way better accuracy. if used in melee the Legionary has a chance to defeat it's opponent.

What i am suggesting is that as a short term fix, we should give anti-cav foot units spears that are more similar to the Pilum. Rather than long sticks that will miss 70% of the times.

This might end up braking the "immersion" since spearman didn't carry spears that short at the time but you have to ask yourself this:
Is a spearman that can't use it's spear correctly not immersion braking?

On another note i'll like to bring to your attention the problem with the long weapons AI once again, as they no longer keep enough distance from the target as they used to before 1.8.

Make of this what you will.

@MArdA TaleWorlds
 
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bestmods168

Sergeant at Arms
Another lol. All those who dissed me (not referring to you) about my methods ended up increasing speed and damage as a work around. I know taleworlds can do it. Just look into the crystal ball and use what you already have.
 

czarny

Veteran
There are 2 more important things than speed and dmg:
1. Spears are easily body blocked by ally troops. You can see how spearmen can't even perform any attack without getting stuck on allies. No attack = no damage, no stagger, nothing. Allies behind first line should be able to attack enemies near first line but guess what. They can't. Attacks get stuck on allies. Even thrusting with swords can be blocked by guy behind you. That was the most annoying thing when I played as spear footman.
2. Spear's attacks are veeeeeeeery hard to land. You have to do clean thrust at right range to deal any damage.

Spear rework mod even version without dmg boost works great. I think dmg boosting version would be too good. Spears are not blocked by allies and hits are easier to land. With this mod I respect enemies with spears. In vanilla I just run at spearman mashing attacks. They can do 1-10 dmg with their 1st attack and nothing more. With mod they can keep me at distance dealing respectable dmg and stagger me. I think there are only 2 changes in this mod - thrusting polearm handling and something that removes 1st issue.

In 1.8.0 TW did some changes (bugs?) to battle AI. Troops just don't care about their weapon reach and love face hugging. That makes any longer weapon useless so I hope they will fix it soon.
 

LokiPhurr

Recruit
The true problem with spears is they dont break, and you can attach them to your back. They need to have a wear limit and need to be dropped when switching weapons. Spears are only one part of a battle, the beginning. The rest is a little more brutal.
 

czarny

Veteran
The true problem with spears is they dont break, and you can attach them to your back. They need to have a wear limit and need to be dropped when switching weapons. Spears are only one part of a battle, the beginning. The rest is a little more brutal.
We had weapon breaks in VC. Bannerlord is huge step back compared to VC.
 

sh1ny4

Regular
How about making spears unblockable when not equiped with a shield, alongside making them faster ? would make them properly strong and a good counter to some units such as shock troops
 

LokiPhurr

Recruit
How about making spears unblockable when not equiped with a shield, alongside making them faster ? would make them properly strong and a good counter to some units such as shock troops
I like the idea of having them offer a chance to be unblockable, maybe based on the blockers one handed, two handed, polearm skill and maybe if they successfully do a parry? That could help. But spears still need to break, and be chopped in half by large axes and swords. As of now, in my opnion they are too powerful.
 

LyonExodus

Regular
How about making spears unblockable when not equiped with a shield, alongside making them faster ? would make them properly strong and a good counter to some units such as shock troops
there is only 1 troop that fits that criteria. and it's the Vlandian Pikeman.
You guys are suggesting code changes.

Don't know if you know that changing the code is not something that can be done easily or fast (it depends obviously, but generally that's the case).
My suggestion is to use what is already available and working. that doesn't require much other than changing the values of a weapon or equipping a new weapon entirely that is already in the game.
 

sh1ny4

Regular
there is only 1 troop that fits that criteria. and it's the Vlandian Pikeman.
You guys are suggesting code changes.

Don't know if you know that changing the code is not something that can be done easily or fast (it depends obviously, but generally that's the case).
My suggestion is to use what is already available and working. that doesn't require much other than changing the values of a weapon or equipping a new weapon entirely that is already in the game.
It could be done by tweaking the spears to include them in the 'crush through block' mechanic if it still exist
I am not talking about troops with only spear and no shield, the sturgian heavy spearman would also fit the bill for exemple.
Honestly this change would be much more about making the sturgian tournament not a pain, and if by chance it make them usable in battle then it would be great

As of now, in my opnion they are too powerful.
In my opinion they are only good against cav, but since everything is good against cav it's neglectible
 

Zarthas

Knight at Arms
It seems like a major problem is the "actuation" point of the spear thrust, when it becomes a valid attack. This is a problem with all thrusting attacks in the game. For example, it is possible to deal 0 damage with a Pugio on a thrust because you are "too close" to your target. That is insane.
The problem is magnified on longer weapons to the point of absurdity on Polearms. They need to be much more forgiving.

There's also a general problem in this game with attacks registering as colliding with someone behind you. Try kicking or shield bashing in a big scrum. You often won't be able to kick someone directly in front of you because you will kick your allies behind you. It will be hard to shield bash if there is any ally behind and to your left.
To add to the absurdity, attacking an opponent from behind will sometimes result in them chamber blocking your overhead swing with their overhead swing in the opposite direction. This makes no sense and is indicative of general collision problems, which when combined with the absurd limitations on thrusting, makes spears almost unusable.
 
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