The Polearm and Formation fixes - Effective? Balanced? Realistic?

[Caba`drin]

Polearms aren't about murdering horses, they're about a line of pointy things a horse won't charge directly into.

...because if the horse did, it would be murdered. Hence, they are about murdering horses...

 

[imgran]

But they wouldn't get murdered on the first lovetap by anything moderately straight and pointy, and if they did, they'd tie up the polearms that did the deed, and armor on a horse would turn a polearm.  This system does neither properly.

If you're going to do this, give the bracing a delay before the AI can use the weapon again, like with couched lances.  At LEAST that.

 

[Duh]

Well since its very likely that any code that would scare horses away from polearms would break the playability of battles - we will focus on the proper balanca of hurt and murder.

Also i do think that elite units with excellent weapons would have the ability to kill a horse in one shot - maybe not always, but a chance is definetely there. This however doesnt apply to peasants 

EDIT: I dont really see your problem imgram - we are considering want the damage system suggested a page back.

 

[imgran]

I honestly think that between the Diplomacy fix where injured horses are slowed down, combined with at least modest use of tactics by the AI as I outlined above, would be more than enough.  Polearms are a definite inconvenience when fighting mounted as it is, and it's really easy to get unhorsed if you charge a mass of pikemen without the damage boost, which is about how it should work.

I honestly consider this unnecessary.  The real solution is to get AI formations implemented and finished and get them responding correctly to the forces you're throwing at them (such as forming packed lines of men against horses and shieldwalls against archers, just for an example).  If it can't be done, this damage fix  still isn't a good solution.

 

[Caba`drin]

If you're going to do this, give the bracing a delay before the AI can use the weapon again, like with couched lances.  At LEAST that.

Remember we're talking about two, separate, toggle-able mechanisms here. For spear bracing, this is already in. For the damage bonus against horses, this wouldn't make sense.

But they wouldn't get murdered on the first lovetap by anything moderately straight and pointy, and if they did, they'd tie up the polearms that did the deed, and armor on a horse would turn a polearm.  This system does neither properly.

There have been good suggestions here about qualifying the damage bonus more that will definitely be explored (more differentiation among polearms, rather than a roughly blanket application to "anything moderately straight and pointy"; basing it on troop level/weapon proficiency; taking horse armor factors into account; perhaps a greater scaling of damage) and hopefully (they should) these extra calculations work out smoothly. Still some things, in my mind, won't be changed, the main one being the following: currently the damage bonus applies to any raw damage above 5 points (which means it could still report for 0 damage due to armor soak)...perhaps this baseline will be upped to 10 or so, but keeping this low damage threshold to be buffed is necessary to counter act the AI's inability to maintain distance and use long thrusting weapons wisely.

In the future, battle AI will be improved so enemy horses know to avoid spear formations, or at least try to choose a better target...it is expected that the player makes these adjustments, too.


Just noticed the new/ninja posts, will be going back and editing.
EDIT - on second thought, I've nothing to add after all.

 

[Duh]

I honestly consider this unnecessary. 

Well for thee who dislike the feature, we made it optional.

Anyways I wont be voting for the removal of this system and this thread is not about that anyways. Its about suggestions on how to improve the polearm and formation features.

 

[themendios]

I think it's a good idea, but honestly tell me why a high armor horse that is stationary should be instantly killed by a very crappy poleam.  Not to mention how does armor factor into this?  At all?  What would a courser get?  5000 damage? 

It's all academic when one shot kills any stationary horse, it basically means any horse with any armor at any speed hit by any polearm is dead, which is beyond overkill to me.

Maybe it's a matter of you've upped the base damage when really I'd just rather see an increase in the speed multiplier.  And I don't think in any case a 60+ armor horse iwth 35+ charge should be instantly dying to anything, since it completely defeats the existence of slower armored chargers.

 

[Caba`drin]

This should probably be moved here for ease-of-reference for folks, too:

There are currently two buffs in place for polearms against horses. Both of them can be toggled on and off in the mod options menu. The first is the damage tweak that is also tied to increased horse trample damage. It works in the following manner:

If a horse is hit by a weapon that is longer than 150 units (so long spears, bardiches, pikes, etc) and the damage inflicted (before armor damage reductions) was at least 5, the weapon does at least about 60 bonus damage...if the attack was a thrust, that bonus damage is doubled. (The benefit here is that the AI bots need to actually attack to cause damage, but it can be a fairly blunt instrument as it is a fairly generic damage buff.)

The second is the "spear bracing" code, that you can activate for your team by ordering your men to brace their spears (Attack orders -> Brace spears) and you can turn on for the AI in the camp menu. This gives essentially "reverse couched" damage to charging horses who run towards (within a weapon length distance of) an polearm-wielding enemy. The bonus damage given is based on the speed of the charging horse. It is significantly increased if the enemy polearm is a pike. (The benefit here is that the damage is directly speed-related, but the major detraction is the AI bot does not actually make an attack and it currently looks like an invisible anti-horse laser kills a mount.)

We welcome comments on balancing or suggestions on how these systems might be refined. We include the on/off toggles for the player's benefit to find something that feels right for them. But, at the same time, we (at least this applies, strongly, to me) believe without those buffs, horses are very unbalanced natively and given the AI's inability to use polearms effectively, these tweaks are necessary to provide a more accurate (and I would argue strategically enjoyable) gameplay experience. Heavy cavalry didn't charge pikes and spears for a reason. Infantry is the counter for a polearm division, while cavalry should have other targets.

And, in response

I think it's a good idea, but honestly tell me why a high armor horse that is stationary should be instantly killed by a very crappy poleam.

A good point. Others have made it as well. There will be more discrimination among polearms in the future (as opposed to just the length requirement now). 

Not to mention how does armor factor into this?  At all?  What would a courser get?  5000 damage? 

At present, it doesn't factor into the bonus damage as it soaks the "base" damage that the horse would have received without the buff.  So the bonus is calculated in addition to the raw damage (prior to armor soak). (The courser hyperbole isn't necessary.)

Maybe it's a matter of you've upped the base damage when really I'd just rather see an increase in the speed multiplier.  And I don't think in any case a 60+ armor horse iwth 35+ charge should be instantly dying to anything, since it completely defeats the existence of slower armored chargers.

The only way you'd see a high armor horse like that dying in one hit is at a charge at a braced spear wall. Everything else is going to take more than one hit as it is currently coded. As for dealing with the speed multiplier, this won't get at the key issue of spear-armed troops poking horses that are standing over them doing little damage because they have maneuvered themselves too close. The speed would be 0 since the weapon is glancing off...thus, the base damage buff.


Another re-statement of how the damage buff (not spear bracing) currently works:
1. Someone hits a horse with a polearm, any polearm, of length >150 units.
2. That hit does more than 5 raw points of damage (before any armor reduction, but after any speed multipliers are applied)
3. The base damage is set to at least 60 raw points (if the spear hit was supposed to do more than that, nothing changes)
4. If the hit was a thrust, the base damage is set to at least 120 raw points
5. There is a % chance of the horse rearing if the original damage (before any buff) was over 20
6. Final damage is calculated: Buffed Damage (either 60 or 120) - original damage = Extra damage
7. The original raw damage gets fed through the engine and reduced by armor soak, etc.
8. The extra damage is applied without any armor soak.

Final edit of this post
From the looks of the BugTracker, with the next patch of Warband, we'll be able to feed a value back to the engine so the engine can take care of armor soak for us (at present, it would be complicated to replicate the exact armor soak process).

 

[imgran]

I honestly consider this unnecessary. 

Well for thee who dislike the feature, we made it optional.

I'm grateful for that.  Thank you.