the papacy really needs a troop tree overhaul

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the Hospitallers are my favorite Knights/Infantry...i don't like the Papal States, in the Knights of Honor game they always f****ed  my kingdom...when i had a really strong marshall they asked me to lead a Crusade...i would lost that marshall...after that they asked my best marshall ( he was leading my best soldiers against  France, i was Scotland ) then i declined...and all the kingdoms broke any trade/pact and aliance...so when they needed i always helped...i send money for them but still they made me angry...so I wandered in this mod for sometime to gather strong troops and besieged Rome...now i've started the New Roman Empire...and the papacy use a "strong" archer force...they killed the best Imperial troops...so i think even in field battles they are good...
 

Cruger

I'm not sure about the hospitallers.. Did they have any connection to Italy other than they were officialy "under the pope"?
 

Lord Rust

Grandmaster Knight
Cruger said:
I'm not sure about the hospitallers.. Did they have any connection to Italy other than they were officialy "under the pope"?

I've never heard about it, I know that the pope hired mercenary companies same as any other italian city state during the 14th century, I don't know about hte 13th but...I doubt it changed THAT rapidly :razz:
 

SirBombastic

Sergeant
Whether they are fighting for the papal states or any other faction, HOSPITALERS MUST BE IN THE GAME! they were just as important as the Templars and long lived them aswell. I believe that putting them as an elite force under the papacy is a logic idea right now, since they were religious knights in the crusades, yet in real life they were an independent organization with a base in Malta.

please...put them in the game :mrgreen:

great mod btw
 

chantrain

Regular
well actually SirBombastic, the knights hospitaller started and were funded by the pope. Its only much later they came to occupy Malta.

First they were started by the pope, then they occupied territory in the holy land, then they came to control the ancient byzantine city of antioch, then they got pushed out of there and came to occupy Cyprus, they left there and became the lords of Rhodes, and only after they were driven out of there did they come to occupy Malta.

In the early 1200's, the time period this mod is set in, the knights hospitaller are just starting out, they're in their infancy, and they started out under the pope who commissioned them and funded them so it makes the most sense to have them as troops for the papacy.
 

Earl of Swadia

Cruger said:
blowcrapup said:
One possibility is that you could give them a basic lower troop tree e.g.

              > Pilgrim Archer
Pilgrim
              > Pilgrim Guard

Then rather than giving them their own upper levels give them random mid level troops from other factions. This would represent the trained soldiers of other countries who were very religious and decided to go and fight under the Pope. So a full tree could be.

                                  >Pious English Longbowmen > Longbowman of the Papacy
          > Pilgrim Archer
                                > Pious French Crossbowmen > Crossbowman of the Papacy
Pilgrim
                                > Pious Danish Huscarl > Papal Foot Guard > Dismounted Christ Guard
          > Pilgrim Guard
                                > Pious Imperial Horseman > Papal Mounted Guard > Christ Guard > Captain Christ Guard

With maybe two more units at the end of that.

Hmm.. Its actully quite of intersting, but I would be sad to get rid of the Christ Guard (love their mail :razz:)
How about adding the bold bits in? (or something similar)
 

Eram

Sergeant at Arms
WB
In my opinion, the best suggestion is the last one, from Earl of Swadia.

Giving to Pope's army Hospitallers Knight is not very realistic. The Pope had is own army, like all the others states in Europe. But because it was a small States, it had to recruits some mercenaries.
 

Aetheus

Sergeant at Arms
I'd prefer to have Hospitallier Knights. It would give the Papacy an edge, not to mention that they'd look better then a bunch of super monks with giant cross spears. Although I'm not really complaining - the utter inferiority of the papacy gives players a nice faction to sack when they decide to strike out on their own and create their own kingdom.
 

HinSterkan

Squire
M&BWBWF&SVC
What Eram says is very true, if you want to go realism instead of fantasy or romanticism. Though, Hospitallers are much preferable to priests walking around. If any fighting clergy should be added, they should only be as unit leaders. There are some historical examples of this in Germany and Scandinavia with Bishops and Arch Bishops having a role as a warrior. This is besides the point though, as we are talking the Papal States.

I have found one page that doesn't tell much but confirms my thesis pretty much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Durand

Papal military would have to be mercenaries recruited from their holdings in Rome and Romanga, Naples/Siciliy, North Italy or even from France. I would doubt they had any uniform design, so perhaps some modest clothes/armor and a small insignia? Being mercenaries after all...


 

Lord Rust

Grandmaster Knight
hospitaliers fighting for the pope in 1200....ok, but add some elves and orcs in england while you're at it.

give the pope classic italian style mercenary unite trees :smile:
 

Pagan

Sergeant Knight at Arms
El-Diablito said:
hospitaliers fighting for the pope in 1200....ok, but add some elves and orcs in england while you're at it.

Don't know about the elves but the orcs are already in as the english.  :mrgreen:
 
actually...i was wrong about the papal states...in field they kinda suck...today i took my best 40 soldiers... they were : 20 veteran imperial pavise crossbowman, 10 imperial dismounted knights and 10 Teutons...against 3 papal armies they had 72, 59 and 83 soldiers ( in total 214 soldiers ) the weather was : heavy fog with low spotting range...so i used the troop panel ( show your infantry, archers and cavalry ) to know where they are, I ordered my archers to held and my infantry some steps in front of the archers and my cavalry to hold in the right flank of the army.
          I have to say...those crossbowman are really dead eye, half of their cavalry was either dismounted or killed before they get to my infantry line, at that time my cavalry was holding behind their main army so i send my infantry after that i sent my cavalry to trap their army...so it was easy to rout their remaining soldiers...when the new waves arrived they charged but with 5 or 6 kills they routed again.
        I was advancing my main army with the same structure...infantry to protect in front and crossbowman shooting to support my cavalry while they were killing the remaining papal soldiers, i lost about 13 soldiers ( mainly infantry when they charged their archers because they dun have shields ) so I really think you need to think about a better papal troop tree
                My only problem was when i rushed the infantry using a ladder...but if you order the pavise  to hold fire and put the infantry right behind them you can wait until they run out of ammo then you charge and order the ranged infantry to shot just to give some support

Sorry for the long post and for the bad English...
 

SirBombastic

Sergeant
so..which is the most accpetable faction to put the hospitalers in??

I think everyone agreed that they should be in the game, yet evryone disagreed on the placement....

One the other hand, there should be arabic factions in north african and oriental territory, theres no fun in being a templar or hospitaller if you cant join a crusade!

 

Cruger

To dump in the Hospitaller discussion:

I wont be including Hospitallers for the Papal States, they have pretty much nothing to do in Italy, I aren't going to add them simply because they were under the pope..
 
no hospitallers? maybe you can just add them a own troop tree a smal castle in a little island and call them knights of malta or whatever just for them to be in...or you can take all those religious orders of knights and change to be mercs...
 

Lord Rust

Grandmaster Knight
Heaven Knight said:
no hospitallers? maybe you can just add them a own troop tree a smal castle in a little island and call them knights of malta or whatever just for them to be in...or you can take all those religious orders of knights and change to be mercs...

Or we can focus on more important factions like venice, milan, turks etc
 
El-Diablito said:
Heaven Knight said:
no hospitallers? maybe you can just add them a own troop tree a Small castle in a little island and call them knights of Malta or whatever just for them to be in...or you can take all those religious orders of knights and change to be mercs...

Or we can focus on more important factions like venice, milan, turks etc

and maybe we can do both with some priorities like more competition in the balkans
 

chantrain

Regular
Cruger said:
To dump in the Hospitaller discussion:

I wont be including Hospitallers for the Papal States, they have pretty much nothing to do in Italy, I aren't going to add them simply because they were under the pope..

seems odd not to have them in the mod when they were a major crusader order, they deserve to be in as much as templars or teutons. cant you find a way to get them ingame?

maybe after you add the turks you can give them some competition by adding acre or antioch and making it controlled by the knights of st john. the year is 1200 in the mod and at this period a kingdom of jerusalem and a principality of antioch did exist, and the knights of st john were major players in these kingdoms and one of the most powerful crusader orders of the time.
 

Earl of Swadia

It seems there is a lot of support for the hospitallers. Perhaps they could be considered (that is, as a separate faction) after the additions on Venice, northern Italy and eastern Europe. Then again, it is Cruger's mod, so it's entirely up to him what he wants in it. For the moment, the factions in the poll should be created.
 

chantrain

Regular
yeah, i definitely wouldn't mind seeing northern italy and eastern europe fleshed out either.

I'd give you a hand Cruger but I'm no modder :smile: I can wish you luck though.
 
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